The point is not to even the playing field. The point is to avoid every single game ending with the Machine deck entirely obliterated by hate cards.
All Is Dust isn't a hate card. It's a card that exploits one side's frequent characteristic (and also requires a specific ramp setup that's not the only way to build that side). The other side has synergistic cards too, which won't even be considered for banning.
Let's not forget that the Machines have access to off-tribe Artificers, too, and those can be pretty powerful.
I don't aim to ban everything. I aim to try and make you come up with more elaborate ideas than just "Oh, everything this deck will face will be white? I might put Gloom in there" (which I consider my fault, to be clear).
Cataclysm is one somebody played against me last night, had forgotten about that one. Don't know if that is too harsh against artifacts, it's obviously better against them if they're using lots of noncreature artifacts, but they can "save" 2 artifact creatures so maybe it's not a problem.
On the potential shenanigans front, I have a few ideas for breaking the matchup in half in avenues which haven't yet been considered. If you try to ban everything, you will miss several things.
All is dust is the single most powerful sweeper Artifacts has access to bar none.
Sure it sees play in non-pure events...anyone running any form of artifact tribal would be fool (or too poor) not to run it.
I personally hate the whole ban zillions of cards to attempt to make this an even playing field.
the point is to explore the unevenness of the two tribes. Find their asymmetry and exploit that as best you can. Cats Vs Dogs didn't see any particularly heavy banning to favor the obvious underdog dogs. Pardon that unwieldy word play.
I don't see why this needs more than the usual and maybe taking out the cheapest easy button cards.
I also don't really see the point in monocolor restrictions since it is thoroughly possible to build pretty bad human decks in multicolors and pretty damned awesome monocolor decks that don't struggle for lands. If that rule was instituted I'd predict a 95% to 5% field of super aggro human decks.
I didn't go through multi-color cards (speaking of them: Artifact Mutation and Vithian Renegades are another MC cards that I would ban), but Decimate doesn't seem too good to me as it needs an enchantment in play in order to be cast. Maybe if you stuff your deck with Rancors etc.
But artifact tribes are using All Is Dust against regular decks during any week. What makes it more powerful now, except for the fact that they're sure not to face another colorless deck, which isn't that common an occurrence anyway?
We should look for stuff that hoses Human specifically, but I'm not sure there is, especially with creatures like black Mikaeus already out of the picture.
It was a lot of fun, and I know that my language towards the end got despondent, but that was because it felt like every time I was getting close to winning the game, things just worked out against me.
I've not yet tested charm, but if I were to do so, I would test it in the main, I feel like if I could find room for it in the first 60 it would shine!
My first thought was to put Sublime Archangel & Thragtusks as Restoration angel doesn't have much interaction with the other creatures. Then I changed my mind to proceed with 2x Restoration Angel due to the surprise of Flash factor and her synergy with the Thragtusks (even that could occur very rarely).
You're right about the vast potentials of the fetchlands. Even during the RTR set, I was hoping to see a Common fetchland for Gates beside Maze's End. They can easily improve the Alara fetchland cycle or maybe can give us a fetchland for basic lands that don't come into play tapped for 1 life. There can be lots of possible variations in their design as you said it's no much discovered yet.
I actually think that Resto isn't particularly needed in this build. She doesn't directly interact with almost anything, and is particularly adverse to tokens. Plus, wouldn't the deck veer into more-than-midrange territory with 15 cards having CMC 4+? (I want to build and try this, did you try it in a competitive environment yet?)
Fetches: wasn't thinking of a direct reprint of the ONS/ZEN fetches. They have intermediate design space that's not been explored yet. Like Terramorphic effect but for nonbasic too, maybe with just one option (that would still fetch 4 different dual land types, but not 7 like the "real" fetches do). My reasoning is that for such a land to be meaningful in Standard, you need dual lands with two basic types, like the shocklands now (and there's no way they would get the same chance anytime soon); if you just have basic lands, then a fetch that says "Forest card" or "Island card" is actually worse than Terramorphic.
Then again, Theros isn't a multicolored set, so maybe the 3- or 4-color decks will be downplayed (which isn't a bad thing for the meta: with too many options for splashing colors, decks tend to uniform into the same "good stuff" zones).
I'm mostly running Selesnya Charm in the aggressive G/W decks. Rootborn Defenses was something that I wanted to test in the MD of a midrange deck for some time. And put three Selesnya Charms to the SB to have its options. This is just for testing purpose due to its synergy with the Tokens.
Once again, I totally forget the Gavony Township. You're right, this deck can easily use 1-2 copies of it.
These 10 Taplands are working so well in the current Standard. After the rotation we will lose them. My scenario was little pessimist, where we get 5 new lands for allied or enemy colors.
Personally I'm hoping to see the reprint of all 10 Filter Land cycle or new cycle based on the "Nimbus Maze". I have serious doubts that we can see the reprint of allied fetchlands in the Thereos. I think Wizards may use them as a good opportunity for a "Return to Zendikar".
Regarding to your question: Actually I could add Thragtusk to this deck as it is around 3 tix these days. And with this portfolio, I would add 4x Thragtusk & 2x Restoration Angel & 1 Elvish Mystic and remove: 2x Centaur Healer & 1x Imposing Sovereign & 3x Frontline Medic & 1x Deadbridge Goliath.
I would also add Hammer Mage to the list that should be banned, as he's a Human creature that works as a repeatable artifact sweeper. You also missed Null Rod.
Machines should be banned from running All is Dust.
No, you're right, I misread the release date as September 7. It's September 27, instead. RTR's release was October 5. It's just 8 days earlier. (Theros will be online October 9; RTR was online October 15).
No off-tribe creatures will definitely help in balancing things, as would mono-color requirement to some degree (if nothing else it would lower the average power of human decks).
I wouldn't go so far as to ban all cards with the word "artifact" in them since I am afraid that would open a door to some exploits on the other side? And yeah, I also think Oxidize and Smelt aren't that over-powered (just very efficient), so if other really good stuff was banned I don't think it would be problematic to have them allowed. But for example green also has Crumble and Nature's Claim so that's 12 Swords to Plowshares that can kill non-creature artifacts too.
Less radical option than banning everything that includes the word "artifact" would be to maybe select like 2 different fair artifact removal in each color (eg. Disenchant and Solemn Offering for white) and ban everything else. This would also simplify things as opposed to having a big banlist.
Anyway, I think the cards that are too exploitative, mono-color restriction or not, are (also listing hosers and mass removal):
Creeping Corrosion
Fracturing Gust
Hidden Guerillas
Gleeful Sabotage
Seeds of Innocence
Ancient Runes
Builder's Bane
Granulate
Hammer Mage
Into the Core
Manic Vandal
Meltdown
Rack and Ruin
Pulverize
Primitive Justice
Shattering Pulse
Shattering Spree
Shatterstorm
Smash
Vandalblast
Energy Flux
Hurkyl's Recall
Rebuild
Aura of Silence
Austere Command
Dust to Dust
Fracturing Gust
Purify
Return to Dust
Rune of Protection: Artifacts
Serenity
Stony Silence
Not sure about: Relic Crush, Rebuking Ceremony, Echoing Ruin, Keldon Vandals, Smash to Smithereens, Domineer, COP: Artifacts, Steal Artifact, Reduce to Dream and Devout Chaplain.
(Didn't go through multi-color cards and probably miss some stuff.)
I would be happy to assist you as a co-host in the event.
First thing (that was unfortunately not mentioned, but a proper focus on the event will be in the next article): the event will use the Pure rule (not the Pure ban list), meaning no off-tribe creatures. The Machines will have some exceptions, in that they can use the other two Machine tribes as off-tribe creatures, and Artificers as well. The Human will only be able to use creatures that include the Human type. So there's no need to ban Viashinos, Gorilla Shamans, Glissa and other Elves, etc.
Aura of Silence is a hoser, so it will be in the ban list.
On one hand, I'm tempted to just declare everything with the word "artifact" (or, in the Machine deck, "human") banned.
On the other hand, I like the flavor of the Humans knowing they're going against the machines and prepare themselves. If they look at them only as creatures, we lose something. Oxidize and Smelt are that much better than Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile? If anything, they push towards green and red Humans, that we see less frequently than white.
I'm almost thinking that it could be cool to have the Human decks being monocolored, so if you want the best anti-artifact stuff you have to renounce the white ones. And you lose the multicolored ones in any case, most of which are overplayed. So the Human decks couldn't turn into Knight of the Reliquary decks, as there's a good chance they would. And monocolored is budget-friendly.
What do you think?
(I doubt I'll be able to have a Gatherling filter handle all of this, but I think we'll have a reduced attendance so I could just check every deck myself. Btw, would you be available to be the co-host for the event and give me a hand with that?)
re: future mana bases - future mana bases will only be as good if we assume that the Theros lands will be as good or better than the Check lands. If they aren't, then we won't be able to consistently pull off the 3 color decks that we see now. Supposedly the lands aren't intended to enable 3 color decks, just 2 color ones? What will that mean, who knows? I'm not sure if we will get fetches while Rav Shocks are in standard; I would love it, but I don't think Wizards wants to create that kind of format?
re: the deck - I'd suggest running Selesnya Charm in the main over Rootborn Defense. The pump + trample lets you get your big guys in over top of chump blokers, a cheap instant speed creature can be tricky fun with Trostani and the removal is good against Desecration Demon or a RG deck that pops a Rampager thinking they are about to win.It's versatility seems more useful in the Main where as you could SB Rootborn Defenses for decks that it'll be effective.
Oh, and a even though it's about to rotate, a Gavony Township or 2 never hurts.
Is Theros coming out a month earlier than RTR online? The paper relases is a week before RTR was?
I think humans will have a huge advantage in Man VS Machine event unless you ban some additional cards that destroy artifacts, not just the ones that can destroy multiple. I mean you have cantrips like Smash, CITP humans like Keldon Vandals, Manic Vandal and Vithian Renegades (and also other creatures like Uktabi Orangutan, Viridian Shaman, Tin Street Hulligan etc. so you can build a really good tempo-card advantage deck), very efficient removal like Oxidize and Smelt and broken stuff like Artifact Mutation and Aura of Silence. Plus artifact removal on a stick in form of Viashino Heretic etc.
I don't mind having select few fair artifact removal like Disenchant not banned, but allowing everything that is not mass removal will enable players to build really broken humans decks.
(Not saying that I can extrapolate from the description of the event that you intended to ban only mass removal, just throwing this here in case you didn't think about it.)
Rex, you're just going through powerful cards right now. :)
The point is not to even the playing field. The point is to avoid every single game ending with the Machine deck entirely obliterated by hate cards.
All Is Dust isn't a hate card. It's a card that exploits one side's frequent characteristic (and also requires a specific ramp setup that's not the only way to build that side). The other side has synergistic cards too, which won't even be considered for banning.
Let's not forget that the Machines have access to off-tribe Artificers, too, and those can be pretty powerful.
I don't aim to ban everything. I aim to try and make you come up with more elaborate ideas than just "Oh, everything this deck will face will be white? I might put Gloom in there" (which I consider my fault, to be clear).
Cataclysm is one somebody played against me last night, had forgotten about that one. Don't know if that is too harsh against artifacts, it's obviously better against them if they're using lots of noncreature artifacts, but they can "save" 2 artifact creatures so maybe it's not a problem.
I built one of those as a Kev Walker artist deck.
On the potential shenanigans front, I have a few ideas for breaking the matchup in half in avenues which haven't yet been considered. If you try to ban everything, you will miss several things.
All is dust is the single most powerful sweeper Artifacts has access to bar none.
Sure it sees play in non-pure events...anyone running any form of artifact tribal would be fool (or too poor) not to run it.
I personally hate the whole ban zillions of cards to attempt to make this an even playing field.
the point is to explore the unevenness of the two tribes. Find their asymmetry and exploit that as best you can. Cats Vs Dogs didn't see any particularly heavy banning to favor the obvious underdog dogs. Pardon that unwieldy word play.
I don't see why this needs more than the usual and maybe taking out the cheapest easy button cards.
I also don't really see the point in monocolor restrictions since it is thoroughly possible to build pretty bad human decks in multicolors and pretty damned awesome monocolor decks that don't struggle for lands. If that rule was instituted I'd predict a 95% to 5% field of super aggro human decks.
I didn't go through multi-color cards (speaking of them: Artifact Mutation and Vithian Renegades are another MC cards that I would ban), but Decimate doesn't seem too good to me as it needs an enchantment in play in order to be cast. Maybe if you stuff your deck with Rancors etc.
Decimate? It guarantees a 3-for-1, essentially.
Unless we go with mono, which I'm voting for.
But artifact tribes are using All Is Dust against regular decks during any week. What makes it more powerful now, except for the fact that they're sure not to face another colorless deck, which isn't that common an occurrence anyway?
We should look for stuff that hoses Human specifically, but I'm not sure there is, especially with creatures like black Mikaeus already out of the picture.
It was a lot of fun, and I know that my language towards the end got despondent, but that was because it felt like every time I was getting close to winning the game, things just worked out against me.
I've not yet tested charm, but if I were to do so, I would test it in the main, I feel like if I could find room for it in the first 60 it would shine!
My first thought was to put Sublime Archangel & Thragtusks as Restoration angel doesn't have much interaction with the other creatures. Then I changed my mind to proceed with 2x Restoration Angel due to the surprise of Flash factor and her synergy with the Thragtusks (even that could occur very rarely).
You're right about the vast potentials of the fetchlands. Even during the RTR set, I was hoping to see a Common fetchland for Gates beside Maze's End. They can easily improve the Alara fetchland cycle or maybe can give us a fetchland for basic lands that don't come into play tapped for 1 life. There can be lots of possible variations in their design as you said it's no much discovered yet.
I was really happy to see these cards. I want to be familiarize on this more. - David Slone
No Sublime Archangel?
I actually think that Resto isn't particularly needed in this build. She doesn't directly interact with almost anything, and is particularly adverse to tokens. Plus, wouldn't the deck veer into more-than-midrange territory with 15 cards having CMC 4+? (I want to build and try this, did you try it in a competitive environment yet?)
Fetches: wasn't thinking of a direct reprint of the ONS/ZEN fetches. They have intermediate design space that's not been explored yet. Like Terramorphic effect but for nonbasic too, maybe with just one option (that would still fetch 4 different dual land types, but not 7 like the "real" fetches do). My reasoning is that for such a land to be meaningful in Standard, you need dual lands with two basic types, like the shocklands now (and there's no way they would get the same chance anytime soon); if you just have basic lands, then a fetch that says "Forest card" or "Island card" is actually worse than Terramorphic.
Then again, Theros isn't a multicolored set, so maybe the 3- or 4-color decks will be downplayed (which isn't a bad thing for the meta: with too many options for splashing colors, decks tend to uniform into the same "good stuff" zones).
This deck seems really cool and something that we can have lots of fun while playing with it.
Did you test "Boros Charm" in this deck as I think it can help you to evade all these destroy/damage effects.
Thanks for your comments.
I'm mostly running Selesnya Charm in the aggressive G/W decks. Rootborn Defenses was something that I wanted to test in the MD of a midrange deck for some time. And put three Selesnya Charms to the SB to have its options. This is just for testing purpose due to its synergy with the Tokens.
Once again, I totally forget the Gavony Township. You're right, this deck can easily use 1-2 copies of it.
These videos are really good and helpful at the same time. I like the idea on this. - YOR Health
These 10 Taplands are working so well in the current Standard. After the rotation we will lose them. My scenario was little pessimist, where we get 5 new lands for allied or enemy colors.
Personally I'm hoping to see the reprint of all 10 Filter Land cycle or new cycle based on the "Nimbus Maze". I have serious doubts that we can see the reprint of allied fetchlands in the Thereos. I think Wizards may use them as a good opportunity for a "Return to Zendikar".
Regarding to your question: Actually I could add Thragtusk to this deck as it is around 3 tix these days. And with this portfolio, I would add 4x Thragtusk & 2x Restoration Angel & 1 Elvish Mystic and remove: 2x Centaur Healer & 1x Imposing Sovereign & 3x Frontline Medic & 1x Deadbridge Goliath.
These cards are really good. I want to familiarize this all. - YOR Health
I would also add Hammer Mage to the list that should be banned, as he's a Human creature that works as a repeatable artifact sweeper. You also missed Null Rod.
Machines should be banned from running All is Dust.
No, you're right, I misread the release date as September 7. It's September 27, instead. RTR's release was October 5. It's just 8 days earlier. (Theros will be online October 9; RTR was online October 15).
No off-tribe creatures will definitely help in balancing things, as would mono-color requirement to some degree (if nothing else it would lower the average power of human decks).
I wouldn't go so far as to ban all cards with the word "artifact" in them since I am afraid that would open a door to some exploits on the other side? And yeah, I also think Oxidize and Smelt aren't that over-powered (just very efficient), so if other really good stuff was banned I don't think it would be problematic to have them allowed. But for example green also has Crumble and Nature's Claim so that's 12 Swords to Plowshares that can kill non-creature artifacts too.
Less radical option than banning everything that includes the word "artifact" would be to maybe select like 2 different fair artifact removal in each color (eg. Disenchant and Solemn Offering for white) and ban everything else. This would also simplify things as opposed to having a big banlist.
Anyway, I think the cards that are too exploitative, mono-color restriction or not, are (also listing hosers and mass removal):
Creeping Corrosion
Fracturing Gust
Hidden Guerillas
Gleeful Sabotage
Seeds of Innocence
Ancient Runes
Builder's Bane
Granulate
Hammer Mage
Into the Core
Manic Vandal
Meltdown
Rack and Ruin
Pulverize
Primitive Justice
Shattering Pulse
Shattering Spree
Shatterstorm
Smash
Vandalblast
Energy Flux
Hurkyl's Recall
Rebuild
Aura of Silence
Austere Command
Dust to Dust
Fracturing Gust
Purify
Return to Dust
Rune of Protection: Artifacts
Serenity
Stony Silence
Not sure about: Relic Crush, Rebuking Ceremony, Echoing Ruin, Keldon Vandals, Smash to Smithereens, Domineer, COP: Artifacts, Steal Artifact, Reduce to Dream and Devout Chaplain.
(Didn't go through multi-color cards and probably miss some stuff.)
I would be happy to assist you as a co-host in the event.
First thing (that was unfortunately not mentioned, but a proper focus on the event will be in the next article): the event will use the Pure rule (not the Pure ban list), meaning no off-tribe creatures. The Machines will have some exceptions, in that they can use the other two Machine tribes as off-tribe creatures, and Artificers as well. The Human will only be able to use creatures that include the Human type. So there's no need to ban Viashinos, Gorilla Shamans, Glissa and other Elves, etc.
Aura of Silence is a hoser, so it will be in the ban list.
On one hand, I'm tempted to just declare everything with the word "artifact" (or, in the Machine deck, "human") banned.
On the other hand, I like the flavor of the Humans knowing they're going against the machines and prepare themselves. If they look at them only as creatures, we lose something. Oxidize and Smelt are that much better than Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile? If anything, they push towards green and red Humans, that we see less frequently than white.
I'm almost thinking that it could be cool to have the Human decks being monocolored, so if you want the best anti-artifact stuff you have to renounce the white ones. And you lose the multicolored ones in any case, most of which are overplayed. So the Human decks couldn't turn into Knight of the Reliquary decks, as there's a good chance they would. And monocolored is budget-friendly.
What do you think?
(I doubt I'll be able to have a Gatherling filter handle all of this, but I think we'll have a reduced attendance so I could just check every deck myself. Btw, would you be available to be the co-host for the event and give me a hand with that?)
wasn't there a soulscour myr deck awhile back that ramped and wrath'd?
re: future mana bases - future mana bases will only be as good if we assume that the Theros lands will be as good or better than the Check lands. If they aren't, then we won't be able to consistently pull off the 3 color decks that we see now. Supposedly the lands aren't intended to enable 3 color decks, just 2 color ones? What will that mean, who knows? I'm not sure if we will get fetches while Rav Shocks are in standard; I would love it, but I don't think Wizards wants to create that kind of format?
re: the deck - I'd suggest running Selesnya Charm in the main over Rootborn Defense. The pump + trample lets you get your big guys in over top of chump blokers, a cheap instant speed creature can be tricky fun with Trostani and the removal is good against Desecration Demon or a RG deck that pops a Rampager thinking they are about to win.It's versatility seems more useful in the Main where as you could SB Rootborn Defenses for decks that it'll be effective.
Oh, and a even though it's about to rotate, a Gavony Township or 2 never hurts.
Is Theros coming out a month earlier than RTR online? The paper relases is a week before RTR was?
I think humans will have a huge advantage in Man VS Machine event unless you ban some additional cards that destroy artifacts, not just the ones that can destroy multiple. I mean you have cantrips like Smash, CITP humans like Keldon Vandals, Manic Vandal and Vithian Renegades (and also other creatures like Uktabi Orangutan, Viridian Shaman, Tin Street Hulligan etc. so you can build a really good tempo-card advantage deck), very efficient removal like Oxidize and Smelt and broken stuff like Artifact Mutation and Aura of Silence. Plus artifact removal on a stick in form of Viashino Heretic etc.
I don't mind having select few fair artifact removal like Disenchant not banned, but allowing everything that is not mass removal will enable players to build really broken humans decks.
(Not saying that I can extrapolate from the description of the event that you intended to ban only mass removal, just throwing this here in case you didn't think about it.)