One note: I was playing around with different ways of presenting the data and after publishing I noticed I was missing two Shops decks from the PRE Top 8 data, so it was actually 21 Shop decks. These decks did make it into the total. Obviously, the larger point still stands.
enderfall: I agree that the DCI probably doesn't look at PREs. However, I think they (at least the major ones) are important data points for shedding light on the format. I also think the difference between the metagame for PREs and DEs can be a bit exaggerated. I tried to do some research on the best contact person and settled on Lauer just because I couldn't find anyone who looked better. Does Turian have any connections to the DCI? I thought he was just involved with managing the online side of things.
RexDart: I agree that Workshop's unrestriction was kind of an anomaly and that there is an element of 'historical inertia' behind it being a pillar, but I think you could say the same about the power levels of cards like Mana Drain, Bazaar, etc. That being said, I think the strategy is an important and fair (at least by Classic/Vintage standards) part of the format. The problem is that Workshop was unrestricted within a specific context of a format with Moxen where with Classic it was just thrown in without any additional considerations about what was needed to balance out those decks with the rest of the format. I didn't get to any specific talk about what I thought needed to be done (I'll probably do that in a follow-up article), but I'm not in favor of a Workshop restriction, because as you said, the decks it's holding back are worse than the deck itself.
Waterwho: Thanks for the compliment. Even though I mostly play Fish, I like playing Stax decks. I just think the archetype needs to be brought down to the rest of the pack a bit. Of course, I'm still playing and will still be writing regardless of what happens on Dec. 20. (Unfortunately, I'm skeptical that the DCI will do anything, but I thought it was still important to write this and get it out there.)
Thanks for writing about the deck. I had stopped playing the deck since the MBC got popular. But I had fun playing the deck again after a while and think its not that bad like I started thinking before.
Looking at the MBC decks at the present I think there are less of edict type of removal which I believe was the hardest part to face playing the Cyclops combo. Also the combination of discard effects and point removal with a bit of card draw the MBC matchup seemed doomed.
Would you have more ideas how to play around the edict removal? Bouncing the own creature away kinda does the trick but I think the control has the better side of the deal since it will make the game go longer. Playing more creatures seems a difficult but maybe some more countermagic to go with dispels?
I had actually considered the orb but never got to test it out. But I honestly thought about it. It'd be a great way to get more cards in my graveyard each turn, and the untap step happens before the draw step so it could ultimately help dredge better. (I didn't get the chance to really test it because of fund issues lol)
As far as gavony, I agree that it probably needs to go. I originally started with 19 lands but I found myself never getting the lands I needed so i bumped it up a bit, and really only added it for utility.
Eventually I'll go back to the deck for a retry, and some additions, and I'd probably consider those changes.
Thanks for the input! I love hearing from people on what they thought my my decks / articles.
Really great article Michael! It's obvious that you spent a lot of time putting it together and I appreciate the work you and enderfall have done to shed light on this issue. I always enjoy the links you provide in your articles and feel they really help support your points.
Hopefully someone within WotC is actually paying attention. Classic was actually mentioned by Mike Turian yesterday in the "Return of daily events...." news. If they are interested supporting the format as they gear up for the release of Vintage they should make some changes to balance out the metagame. And probably change the DE time slot on Saturday to the time it could actually fire.
I'll still play even if no changes occur. I actually have a lot of fun playing Stax!
Mishra's Workshop was restricted when I played Type 1 in the 90's. When I started playing again a few years ago, I was shocked to discover it was unrestricted. Apparently it came off the list about when I was quitting the game, in fall of 1997. There's no record I can find of any explanation from the DCI why it came off the restricted list. Nothing that happened at that time except possibly the restriction of Black Vise in summer '97 appears to have any remote relation to Workshops.
I believe Workshop should have remained on the restricted list along with all the other fast-mana permanents. Its unrestriction is clearly an historical anomaly with no good explanation. Unfortunately, now the deck has acquired a pedigree, people are used to playing with 4 Workshops, and it gets treated as a "pillar of the format". To put it back on the restricted list now, where I do think it has always correctly belonged, would be to kill a long-established deck, and there are too many rabid fans of the deck who would howl over such a thing. There aren't enough people playing Classic to risk pissing off 25% of them, even if the change is proper. Restricting anything else, even Lodestone Golem, looks silly in comparison and doesn't accomplish enough to be worth the trouble. The Shops players would be just as pissed at that anyhow.
There's also the matter of the decks Workshop Stax is keeping out of the format being far more obnoxious than Workshop itself. I'd much rather face a Top 8 of 75% Workshop decks -- especially since I won that Top 8 with Trygon Predators! -- than one filled with Storm decks.
If I were "King for a Day", I would print a powerful hoser against Storm and all variety of infinite recursion decks -- some sort of Leyline with shroud -- and then with them safely out of the way I would restore Workshop to its rightful place on the restricted list as one of the most powerful mana-accelerants in the game.
Card doesn't do much by itself. I think it's better in a more token heavy version of the deck as a possible 1-of. By token heavy I mean the lists that run Krenko's Commands and Dragon Fodders with Skirk Prospector and Foundry Street Denizen and Kruin Striker.
Thanks for helping shed some more light on the format. When doing my research, Thirst did not immediately jump out to me, but thankfully you were able to point it out.
I will say that WotC doesn't generally pay any attention to PRE formats. They simply don't have the data available to them, and they also don't have much control as to vet any information that might be erroneous. Also, free to enter tournaments don't have the same metagames as sanctioned events that require a buy-in.
If anyone is interested in contacting someone at WotC regarding the B&R list, I'd recommend Mike Turian, who can be found on twitter. He doesn't make decisions, but he can pass along the note to those that do. Is Erik Lauer actually running the B&R list? He's a developer, so I'm not 100% sure he's the guy to make decisions. He simply may have been the guy chosen to write the B&R articles.
Hey!
I love the deck, I've built a similar deck, inspired by your videos. What do you think about Raid Bombardment as a 1-2 off? It's like this weird out against stalls and I've never hated it yet. I must say that this is more a fun addition than something I'd consider very competitive ;)
Hey, I think you have been doing a great job as a new writer! I'm always glad to see more Modern content and the generated hands is a really nice tool.
As for suggestions, have you considered Gemstone Mine for the deck? It would help with your wide color range and plays nicely with life from the loam. that might help reduce the number of mulligans. also, i am not a huge fan of gavony in this deck. i know it lead to some victories, but the colorless seems horid anytime before t5. 22 lands may just be too many? 4 is technically the highest you want to pay and loam should help find lands.
do you think mesmeric orb could find a spot as another "mill" effect? I was trying to think of something else to rapdily fill the yard.
As you know Asmira is my budget commander deck of choice. Not that I am particular about Selesnya but it is a low key friendly deck that may yet rebuff more expensive nasty decks while playing odd card choices.
I'd like to give a shout-out to the artist who did the card – Blood Artist – I used as a logo, Johannes Voss (algenpfleger on DeviantArt).
In the larger version, you can really appreciate the insane quantity of details (and the creepiness) in that image. Just look at the paintbrushes you can still discern in the extreme background at the center of the scene. And yeah, that's digital light, but you still have to know how to better direct it. It's a great, cinematic piece. For instance, did you realize that the painter is looking at his model/victim, who's lying on the table beyond the fourth wall? (Also, he's clearly a vampire from Sorin's lineage, as you can tell from the albinism and the love of black leather. Do Sorin's white side and/or his winged daughter know where this guy takes his art supplies?)
Voss is a young man from Germany and did only 37 cards so far, of which 13 alone, 24 with Jana Schirmer. But there's good stuff in there, mostly in white and black. His most famous ones are Restoration Angel, Thalia, Sheoldred, Angelic Destiny, Mentor of the Meek, and Phyrexian Metamorph. His best work are his very theatrical, hyper-detailed pieces like Dark Impostor, Markov Patrician, Gift of Orzhova, and Havoc Festival.
As always, I think your comment is spot on particularly on the reason why it's so popular (ie. more related to card availability/ease of build than fundamental strength).
One note: I was playing around with different ways of presenting the data and after publishing I noticed I was missing two Shops decks from the PRE Top 8 data, so it was actually 21 Shop decks. These decks did make it into the total. Obviously, the larger point still stands.
enderfall: I agree that the DCI probably doesn't look at PREs. However, I think they (at least the major ones) are important data points for shedding light on the format. I also think the difference between the metagame for PREs and DEs can be a bit exaggerated. I tried to do some research on the best contact person and settled on Lauer just because I couldn't find anyone who looked better. Does Turian have any connections to the DCI? I thought he was just involved with managing the online side of things.
RexDart: I agree that Workshop's unrestriction was kind of an anomaly and that there is an element of 'historical inertia' behind it being a pillar, but I think you could say the same about the power levels of cards like Mana Drain, Bazaar, etc. That being said, I think the strategy is an important and fair (at least by Classic/Vintage standards) part of the format. The problem is that Workshop was unrestricted within a specific context of a format with Moxen where with Classic it was just thrown in without any additional considerations about what was needed to balance out those decks with the rest of the format. I didn't get to any specific talk about what I thought needed to be done (I'll probably do that in a follow-up article), but I'm not in favor of a Workshop restriction, because as you said, the decks it's holding back are worse than the deck itself.
Waterwho: Thanks for the compliment. Even though I mostly play Fish, I like playing Stax decks. I just think the archetype needs to be brought down to the rest of the pack a bit. Of course, I'm still playing and will still be writing regardless of what happens on Dec. 20. (Unfortunately, I'm skeptical that the DCI will do anything, but I thought it was still important to write this and get it out there.)
Thanks for writing about the deck. I had stopped playing the deck since the MBC got popular. But I had fun playing the deck again after a while and think its not that bad like I started thinking before.
Looking at the MBC decks at the present I think there are less of edict type of removal which I believe was the hardest part to face playing the Cyclops combo. Also the combination of discard effects and point removal with a bit of card draw the MBC matchup seemed doomed.
Would you have more ideas how to play around the edict removal? Bouncing the own creature away kinda does the trick but I think the control has the better side of the deal since it will make the game go longer. Playing more creatures seems a difficult but maybe some more countermagic to go with dispels?
I had actually considered the orb but never got to test it out. But I honestly thought about it. It'd be a great way to get more cards in my graveyard each turn, and the untap step happens before the draw step so it could ultimately help dredge better. (I didn't get the chance to really test it because of fund issues lol)
As far as gavony, I agree that it probably needs to go. I originally started with 19 lands but I found myself never getting the lands I needed so i bumped it up a bit, and really only added it for utility.
Eventually I'll go back to the deck for a retry, and some additions, and I'd probably consider those changes.
Thanks for the input! I love hearing from people on what they thought my my decks / articles.
Play with Stax that is. Playing against Stax....not so much.
Really great article Michael! It's obvious that you spent a lot of time putting it together and I appreciate the work you and enderfall have done to shed light on this issue. I always enjoy the links you provide in your articles and feel they really help support your points.
Hopefully someone within WotC is actually paying attention. Classic was actually mentioned by Mike Turian yesterday in the "Return of daily events...." news. If they are interested supporting the format as they gear up for the release of Vintage they should make some changes to balance out the metagame. And probably change the DE time slot on Saturday to the time it could actually fire.
I'll still play even if no changes occur. I actually have a lot of fun playing Stax!
Mishra's Workshop was restricted when I played Type 1 in the 90's. When I started playing again a few years ago, I was shocked to discover it was unrestricted. Apparently it came off the list about when I was quitting the game, in fall of 1997. There's no record I can find of any explanation from the DCI why it came off the restricted list. Nothing that happened at that time except possibly the restriction of Black Vise in summer '97 appears to have any remote relation to Workshops.
I believe Workshop should have remained on the restricted list along with all the other fast-mana permanents. Its unrestriction is clearly an historical anomaly with no good explanation. Unfortunately, now the deck has acquired a pedigree, people are used to playing with 4 Workshops, and it gets treated as a "pillar of the format". To put it back on the restricted list now, where I do think it has always correctly belonged, would be to kill a long-established deck, and there are too many rabid fans of the deck who would howl over such a thing. There aren't enough people playing Classic to risk pissing off 25% of them, even if the change is proper. Restricting anything else, even Lodestone Golem, looks silly in comparison and doesn't accomplish enough to be worth the trouble. The Shops players would be just as pissed at that anyhow.
There's also the matter of the decks Workshop Stax is keeping out of the format being far more obnoxious than Workshop itself. I'd much rather face a Top 8 of 75% Workshop decks -- especially since I won that Top 8 with Trygon Predators! -- than one filled with Storm decks.
If I were "King for a Day", I would print a powerful hoser against Storm and all variety of infinite recursion decks -- some sort of Leyline with shroud -- and then with them safely out of the way I would restore Workshop to its rightful place on the restricted list as one of the most powerful mana-accelerants in the game.
Card doesn't do much by itself. I think it's better in a more token heavy version of the deck as a possible 1-of. By token heavy I mean the lists that run Krenko's Commands and Dragon Fodders with Skirk Prospector and Foundry Street Denizen and Kruin Striker.
This list is called "Combo Goblins" and you can find a sample list here: http://www.castingcommons.com/optimal-primers/goblins/
Glad I could inspire you to make this deck! That's the whole reason I do videos, to inspire and educate. Your feedback is much appreciated.
Legal provided your artist did a half. You can play both halves.
I'll add it in the forum page.
Also added clarifications for flip cards and double-faced cards.
Thanks for helping shed some more light on the format. When doing my research, Thirst did not immediately jump out to me, but thankfully you were able to point it out.
I will say that WotC doesn't generally pay any attention to PRE formats. They simply don't have the data available to them, and they also don't have much control as to vet any information that might be erroneous. Also, free to enter tournaments don't have the same metagames as sanctioned events that require a buy-in.
If anyone is interested in contacting someone at WotC regarding the B&R list, I'd recommend Mike Turian, who can be found on twitter. He doesn't make decisions, but he can pass along the note to those that do. Is Erik Lauer actually running the B&R list? He's a developer, so I'm not 100% sure he's the guy to make decisions. He simply may have been the guy chosen to write the B&R articles.
Good to know about the techniques. It is somehow helpful though to a beginner like me. - Rabbi Binyomin Lisbon
The videos are really good. I learned a lot from this one. - Rabbi Binyomin Lisbon
Hey!
I love the deck, I've built a similar deck, inspired by your videos. What do you think about Raid Bombardment as a 1-2 off? It's like this weird out against stalls and I've never hated it yet. I must say that this is more a fun addition than something I'd consider very competitive ;)
What's the ruling on split cards?
Worst matchups: Hexproof(by far the worst), Affinity, UB Trinket or Mono Black Control with Crypt Rats
Best matchups: Tron, Elves, DelverFiend, Infect
Hey, I think you have been doing a great job as a new writer! I'm always glad to see more Modern content and the generated hands is a really nice tool.
As for suggestions, have you considered Gemstone Mine for the deck? It would help with your wide color range and plays nicely with life from the loam. that might help reduce the number of mulligans. also, i am not a huge fan of gavony in this deck. i know it lead to some victories, but the colorless seems horid anytime before t5. 22 lands may just be too many? 4 is technically the highest you want to pay and loam should help find lands.
do you think mesmeric orb could find a spot as another "mill" effect? I was trying to think of something else to rapdily fill the yard.
That's right! You do have some interesting stuff in that deck as well. Asmira is pretty low profile, so helpful in that way.
I also did Vish Kal earlier this year: http://puremtgo.com/articles/conqueror-commander-vol-cviii-vish-kal-bloo...
I'll look into doing either Obzedat or Teysa at some point.
As you know Asmira is my budget commander deck of choice. Not that I am particular about Selesnya but it is a low key friendly deck that may yet rebuff more expensive nasty decks while playing odd card choices.
Thanks for pointing out that it's time to pick those Raiders and conscripts!
Hi, Chris! What do you feel are Goblins three best and three worst matchups?
I'd like to give a shout-out to the artist who did the card – Blood Artist – I used as a logo, Johannes Voss (algenpfleger on DeviantArt).
In the larger version, you can really appreciate the insane quantity of details (and the creepiness) in that image. Just look at the paintbrushes you can still discern in the extreme background at the center of the scene. And yeah, that's digital light, but you still have to know how to better direct it. It's a great, cinematic piece. For instance, did you realize that the painter is looking at his model/victim, who's lying on the table beyond the fourth wall? (Also, he's clearly a vampire from Sorin's lineage, as you can tell from the albinism and the love of black leather. Do Sorin's white side and/or his winged daughter know where this guy takes his art supplies?)
Voss is a young man from Germany and did only 37 cards so far, of which 13 alone, 24 with Jana Schirmer. But there's good stuff in there, mostly in white and black. His most famous ones are Restoration Angel, Thalia, Sheoldred, Angelic Destiny, Mentor of the Meek, and Phyrexian Metamorph. His best work are his very theatrical, hyper-detailed pieces like Dark Impostor, Markov Patrician, Gift of Orzhova, and Havoc Festival.
Isn't the art for Weakstone looking at YOU?
Oh my, its eyes are following you around the room!
I played as best as I could, but it looks like I set fire to tickets. :(
As always, I think your comment is spot on particularly on the reason why it's so popular (ie. more related to card availability/ease of build than fundamental strength).
Is it weird that I don't hate any of those? I guess for me Drew Tucker comes close to loathsome and whomever did the art direction for ROE.