the thing I don't like most about this article, is that the author stole the idea from Online Tech a couple weeks ago.. where Frank mentions 30 cards that should see play or are "under the radar" type cards, many of those cards show up here, (off the top of my head Condemn and Ohran Viper)
Not that I think the article is bad, It is just poorly organized and not researched enough. To me, there is more then just the Top 8 decks of any given PE in standard, using that as your only "measuring stick" is a little redundant to me, (time of day, skill of players, amount of players.. all factor in) It also seems to me that you should use "General" arguements rather than specific ones. For example, "Terror and take out Tarmogoyf" .. about 5 lines down "Persausion can steal Tarmogoyf".. rather then stating the rather obvious, why not switch it up, say something like, "Terror is a fast simple way to deal with most targetable creatures in standard." I think anyone who plays can figure out Terror can target Tarmogoyf or if that pesky Birds of Paradise with a Blanchwood armor on it. .. I felt reading the article that you assume everyone knows the decks backwards and frontwards. If I didn't know anything about the current metagame, it would seem to me, from reading your article, that Tarmogoyf pretty much means I have to concede, even though there are plenty of ways to deal with one (Tormod's Crypt, Feldon's Cane, Terror... and so on)
I also don't think 10th has been out long enough to make judgements on cards from it yet. Considering Standard season is basically over (it won't really kick up again seriously until Lorwyn drops.. and that kicks out a lot of archetypes, or severely weakens them) Faerie Conclaves are great, until they get Terror'd, Incinerate'd or Darkblasted. . you're out a threat and a land.. and those aren't uncommon removal sources either..
Finally, I frankly don't care why you put this list out.. the entire outro to the article meant absolutely nothing to me. I don't care what you are playing in the OTJ qualifiers. Don't assume your readers care about personal crusades.
Haven't done a rebuttal comment in a while, so let's start. (Oh , PS, qualifications come from the fact I in fact do play Standard PEs alot (pronounced once every 2 days) *which is why you almost never see me on runeliger nowadays... Darn those 1 account restrictions!!*, oh and I top 8 regularly enough)
1. It is seeing play. It's called UB decks (as well as some solar flare versions), that said, it doesn't gain life unforunately.
2. See Above
3. It's prohibitive color cost worked well against the old UB Dralnu deck mirrors and heavy control decks like mono blue snow, however in the current meta of mid-range Angelfire variants, and the burn intensive Gruul and RDW variants... it's outclassed and out metaed.
4.Seize the Soul, see #1 (And add use in Solar Flare decks, and some Rack decks I hear)
5. Explain why you say not really. That said, see Explaination for #3, and add the fact, I think it should see play eventually.
6. Um, there are better card advantage engines out there, and the current meta doesn't really care if you recur your Angelfire. You'd have to pay a great deal, and with slot intensive decks out there, better used having another threat instead of recurring one (also a dead card if you have no dead creatures).
7. If UG aggro or Mono Green Aggro becomes popular, you'll see this card come back. Unforuantely, you nailed it. 4 mana is too much for 5 damage especially if you rely on creatures ~_~... There is just so many better burn spells that finish it up, that only decks without red need such a card.
8. Mono Green runs it. But guess what, Mono Green is hated out. Enough Said.
9. See Above
10. See above again.
11. What are you talking about? about 10% of the Meta even in PE top 8s uses this card. Ever heard of Perilous Aussie Storm? Or UB variants? This is a vital card against many matchups and an amazing utility card that sees TON of play.
12. UW variants and other U based hard control decks play 4 of these (mostly maindeck). You're right they're good. That's why they see play.
13.Foresee sees play in UW variants. However, the cost takes a bit too long to cast. If you're digging 6 cards, you want to get the card you want. If it's WoG, you probably want to cast it the turn you play Foresee. That's why the 3 mana Compulsive Research is the best card drawing sorcery at this moment. But it'll rotate out in a few months.
14. Ok so Persuasian tells Tarmogoyf to work for me.. Good stuff.. Now watch tarmogoyf's old master burn you for the rest of the mana it took you to get to the 5 mana to persuade that tarmogoyf. There aren't enough huge bombs in the format to warrant the use of this card. That said, it's very powerful and may see play.
15. Pyroclasm (which is a very powerful card I sideboard myself) is claimed under teh justification "the only exception is Tarmogoyf". Hmm let's see...
So let's look at Frank Karsten's Standard meta list. Check. Choose all the aggro decks. Check. Check how many non tarmogoyf creatures have more toughness than 2. Let's see the list.
Mogg War Marshal (survives it leaving a 1/1 token), Greater Gargadon, Keldon Maruders, And a ton of pendelhavens to pump the 1/1s to 2/3s, sacifricing red 1/1s (Mogg Fanatic), Serra Avenger, Troll Ascetic (he can regen, so pyroclasm is rather pointless most of the time), Loxodon Hierarch, Watchwolf, Selesyna Guildmage (can pump all the 1/1s 2/2s and itself to survive everything), Griffin guide (does it for a creature), Call of the Herd Tokens, 2/2s + the Llanowar Reborn tokens, scab-clan mauler. And that's just decks with more than 5% share of the Metagame.
So I'm going to take a pause at the 1/2 way point, and simply ask that next time, do some more research, and detail your arguments better. A lot of these just don't make sense if you play Standard.
Maybe not in the top 8 decks but it seems bizarre because I see Calciderm, Coalition Relic, Pyroclasm, or Shadowmage Infilitator almost every other game I play. Would never call them unpopular cards.
One thing you need to realize on Terror - Condemn - Mortify - Putrefy is they are 4 cards that all fit the same slot. The problem isn't people aren't playing removal it's there's for a change vast choices. Not like in Kawigama where we had what Rend Flesh/Spirit.
The other thing that I can say about Condemn - Why would anyone play it in serious games right now? One word - Teferri. Hard to condem attacking creatures with him in play. This is a card that rightly should not be played since the release of Time Spiral. There are too many far better options.
I think you misunderstand the Mortify/Putrefy dichotomy. The do not do the same thing. Besides from destroying differnet non-Creature permanents, Putrefy prevents creatures from regenerating. This seems like in certain environments, it could be an important factor. Similarly, I can see fields where one is preferrable to the other (since I do not follow Standard, I can not say for certain).
This list based off the Premier Event Top 8's in MTGO. The fact remains that yes some of these cards may be in use, but none are very popular. The red section, I admit, was awkard due to some RDW builds out there. The fact remains that the cards dont see enough play in competitive decks. Anyway, this list is to indicate cards that are underused, from what I can tell, in the current standard metagame on MTGO.
The number of cards on this list that are seeing play boggles the mind. Also your breakdown of the meta as Angelfire, Gruul, and some random decks is pretty far off base.
I'd go on but three paragraphs here offer more solid standard advice then this article.
I don't mean to come off as negative but it just doesn't seem like you are in touch the the standard metagame (and this is coming from someone who is not in touch with it).
I forgot to mention the Canopy pick. I'm with your pick 100%. People get so single-mindedly focused on winning the draft that they forget the whole point of winning: rewards. If you can get 1 or 2 cards that make up for the cost of the draft, you've already won. Any match wins from then on are just Gravy. The removal spell will bring you a few hours of gratification (a better draft deck), but the Canopy [or the money from it] will potentially bring many days of improved decks. The only exception would be at a serious event where you stand to gain a lot more than a few expensive rares by winning the tournament.
That first pack was so tough. Like there were three first pick quality cards in my mind there. I still think that I made the wrong pick, after talking to a lot of friends about the draft.
Everything else you said I pretty much agree with. I felt that this draft was really smooth and things pretty much fell into place.
As for the Canopy pick that Anon wrote about, I know I am trying to become better, but I am a constructed player at heart, I figured well, I might as well take the seven dollar card instead of anything else. Had it not been in my colors I would have been much more disciplined.
Stormfront Riders and Dragoons probably would have been the better choice. They may not have been as aggressive as you would like, but it would have made it to where you wouldn't have had to play islands for some random cards. Crookclaw and trikster are mediocre alot of times due to how easy it is to deal 1 damage to a target these days. Drake you could have kept in. Other than that...if you were only going to play 16 land then you cut factory. You really want that in decks with 17-18 land. Other than that you made all the correct decisions from what I can see card wise. Of course I can be greedy sometimes, I probably would have put in fungal reaches and hellkite. Anyway, good job on the article man.
You're definitely getting better. I can find very few [important] picks that I disagree with.
Pick 1: I actually would have taken Ephemeron here. It's another close call, though. I wouldn't fault anyone for taking Enforcer or Invocation.
Pick 18: Even with 1 Sinew, I would probably have taken the Lion. So good.
Pick 25: I would hate-draft the Blood Knight, seeing as you're in White. I wouldn't have picked (or played) Reflex Sliver. You and your crazy Sliver sub-themes. =P
Pick 32: Bombs, then removal, then dudes. I gotta take the Judge Unworthy here, regardless of synergy.
Pick 39: Venser's Diffusion is much better than anything for your deck. A definite hate-draft.
i don't know.. its cool you won and everything but when you're drafting rares just to draft rares (although you pulled a dual in your colors.. its not always the correct pick).. and everything on MTGO isn't "that" expensive..so to me it wouldn't make sense, especially if you are trying to become a better drafter, and you take basically a card that may not have been useful (say if it was a river of tears instead) but you took it just because it was a dual. i don't know.. i guess i'm not just "ooh rare crazy" like some people..
Sry but u must have gotten about 22 Points...Elo works like this: You and your Opponent are nearly same rating= +7 pts for a win and -7 for a lose. For each about 40 pts between your and your opponents rating this is modified by +1/-1. So if u are 1650 and beat an 1850 u get about 11-12 pts
I actually ended up getting a full ten points here in this event. My first round opponent was mid 1800. Second round low 1700 and the finals was some on rated close to me. I do not understand how exactly the ELO system works. I do know however you would gain less points from beating 1400 rated players if your rating was closer to 1700.
Yeah, I just came off running a three article series on Unplayable style rares for another site. Norin was a part of the third article - I like him and his playstyle online so I adapted and doubled his section for here. I tend to like casually fun cards like Norin - have written about cards ike Panglacial Wurm and Chimeras in the past.
Thanks for all your input. One thing is we do not have a paid editor yet due to the fact that the site makes no money. I edit any major flaws myself that I see but I will try to hire an editor soon. Sebastian did add all the pictures/etc himself. The autolinker is not up yet on these cards but will be soon. It's a lot of work getting new sets in the autolinker/mtgotraders/and deck database. I will get on it asap. But I do appreciate all the feedback and hope you continue to let us know what you think in such detail because it helps me know what to improve. I will seriously be looking for an editor asap also.
I used to play this card in classic when anvil of bogardan just came out. Then i gained cabal therapy and madness.
This card is broken with the anvil and the low cost makes deckbuilding aound it easy.
Contagion has also been a favorite sideboard of mine against agro. As for the article... If a comedian tries to make a funny joke on everything said, he'll stop being funny.
Same for the article ... we wanted a list and got some nice flavour. Thumbs up on that one. How someone experiences magic is different for everyone. Cards that were "spiffy" in the days have been outmerchandised mostly by WOTC already. :)
I look forward to seeing these cards for trade, and i might play limited MED just for fun. But i didn't buy visions for the vampiric tutor and i wouldn't buy this set for playability either.
It's great to have you writing Brian. If you could update your avatar to one of your pics that would be great. If you need help doing so just post your picture on our forums and i'll do it for you. Great article! -Heath
Yeah, I think I would have tried to run the bomb off of the reach as well.
the thing I don't like most about this article, is that the author stole the idea from Online Tech a couple weeks ago.. where Frank mentions 30 cards that should see play or are "under the radar" type cards, many of those cards show up here, (off the top of my head Condemn and Ohran Viper)
Not that I think the article is bad, It is just poorly organized and not researched enough. To me, there is more then just the Top 8 decks of any given PE in standard, using that as your only "measuring stick" is a little redundant to me, (time of day, skill of players, amount of players.. all factor in) It also seems to me that you should use "General" arguements rather than specific ones. For example, "Terror and take out Tarmogoyf" .. about 5 lines down "Persausion can steal Tarmogoyf".. rather then stating the rather obvious, why not switch it up, say something like, "Terror is a fast simple way to deal with most targetable creatures in standard." I think anyone who plays can figure out Terror can target Tarmogoyf or if that pesky Birds of Paradise with a Blanchwood armor on it. .. I felt reading the article that you assume everyone knows the decks backwards and frontwards. If I didn't know anything about the current metagame, it would seem to me, from reading your article, that Tarmogoyf pretty much means I have to concede, even though there are plenty of ways to deal with one (Tormod's Crypt, Feldon's Cane, Terror... and so on)
I also don't think 10th has been out long enough to make judgements on cards from it yet. Considering Standard season is basically over (it won't really kick up again seriously until Lorwyn drops.. and that kicks out a lot of archetypes, or severely weakens them) Faerie Conclaves are great, until they get Terror'd, Incinerate'd or Darkblasted. . you're out a threat and a land.. and those aren't uncommon removal sources either..
Finally, I frankly don't care why you put this list out.. the entire outro to the article meant absolutely nothing to me. I don't care what you are playing in the OTJ qualifiers. Don't assume your readers care about personal crusades.
Haven't done a rebuttal comment in a while, so let's start. (Oh , PS, qualifications come from the fact I in fact do play Standard PEs alot (pronounced once every 2 days) *which is why you almost never see me on runeliger nowadays... Darn those 1 account restrictions!!*, oh and I top 8 regularly enough)
1. It is seeing play. It's called UB decks (as well as some solar flare versions), that said, it doesn't gain life unforunately.
2. See Above
3. It's prohibitive color cost worked well against the old UB Dralnu deck mirrors and heavy control decks like mono blue snow, however in the current meta of mid-range Angelfire variants, and the burn intensive Gruul and RDW variants... it's outclassed and out metaed.
4.Seize the Soul, see #1 (And add use in Solar Flare decks, and some Rack decks I hear)
5. Explain why you say not really. That said, see Explaination for #3, and add the fact, I think it should see play eventually.
6. Um, there are better card advantage engines out there, and the current meta doesn't really care if you recur your Angelfire. You'd have to pay a great deal, and with slot intensive decks out there, better used having another threat instead of recurring one (also a dead card if you have no dead creatures).
7. If UG aggro or Mono Green Aggro becomes popular, you'll see this card come back. Unforuantely, you nailed it. 4 mana is too much for 5 damage especially if you rely on creatures ~_~... There is just so many better burn spells that finish it up, that only decks without red need such a card.
8. Mono Green runs it. But guess what, Mono Green is hated out. Enough Said.
9. See Above
10. See above again.
11. What are you talking about? about 10% of the Meta even in PE top 8s uses this card. Ever heard of Perilous Aussie Storm? Or UB variants? This is a vital card against many matchups and an amazing utility card that sees TON of play.
12. UW variants and other U based hard control decks play 4 of these (mostly maindeck). You're right they're good. That's why they see play.
13.Foresee sees play in UW variants. However, the cost takes a bit too long to cast. If you're digging 6 cards, you want to get the card you want. If it's WoG, you probably want to cast it the turn you play Foresee. That's why the 3 mana Compulsive Research is the best card drawing sorcery at this moment. But it'll rotate out in a few months.
14. Ok so Persuasian tells Tarmogoyf to work for me.. Good stuff.. Now watch tarmogoyf's old master burn you for the rest of the mana it took you to get to the 5 mana to persuade that tarmogoyf. There aren't enough huge bombs in the format to warrant the use of this card. That said, it's very powerful and may see play.
15. Pyroclasm (which is a very powerful card I sideboard myself) is claimed under teh justification "the only exception is Tarmogoyf". Hmm let's see...
So let's look at Frank Karsten's Standard meta list. Check. Choose all the aggro decks. Check. Check how many non tarmogoyf creatures have more toughness than 2. Let's see the list.
Mogg War Marshal (survives it leaving a 1/1 token), Greater Gargadon, Keldon Maruders, And a ton of pendelhavens to pump the 1/1s to 2/3s, sacifricing red 1/1s (Mogg Fanatic), Serra Avenger, Troll Ascetic (he can regen, so pyroclasm is rather pointless most of the time), Loxodon Hierarch, Watchwolf, Selesyna Guildmage (can pump all the 1/1s 2/2s and itself to survive everything), Griffin guide (does it for a creature), Call of the Herd Tokens, 2/2s + the Llanowar Reborn tokens, scab-clan mauler. And that's just decks with more than 5% share of the Metagame.
So I'm going to take a pause at the 1/2 way point, and simply ask that next time, do some more research, and detail your arguments better. A lot of these just don't make sense if you play Standard.
-Rune
Maybe not in the top 8 decks but it seems bizarre because I see Calciderm, Coalition Relic, Pyroclasm, or Shadowmage Infilitator almost every other game I play. Would never call them unpopular cards.
One thing you need to realize on Terror - Condemn - Mortify - Putrefy is they are 4 cards that all fit the same slot. The problem isn't people aren't playing removal it's there's for a change vast choices. Not like in Kawigama where we had what Rend Flesh/Spirit.
The other thing that I can say about Condemn - Why would anyone play it in serious games right now? One word - Teferri. Hard to condem attacking creatures with him in play. This is a card that rightly should not be played since the release of Time Spiral. There are too many far better options.
I think you misunderstand the Mortify/Putrefy dichotomy. The do not do the same thing. Besides from destroying differnet non-Creature permanents, Putrefy prevents creatures from regenerating. This seems like in certain environments, it could be an important factor. Similarly, I can see fields where one is preferrable to the other (since I do not follow Standard, I can not say for certain).
-Alex
This list based off the Premier Event Top 8's in MTGO. The fact remains that yes some of these cards may be in use, but none are very popular. The red section, I admit, was awkard due to some RDW builds out there. The fact remains that the cards dont see enough play in competitive decks. Anyway, this list is to indicate cards that are underused, from what I can tell, in the current standard metagame on MTGO.
Agree with the others, Dragoons is solid in sealed and Riders is awesome.
The number of cards on this list that are seeing play boggles the mind. Also your breakdown of the meta as Angelfire, Gruul, and some random decks is pretty far off base.
I'd go on but three paragraphs here offer more solid standard advice then this article.
I don't mean to come off as negative but it just doesn't seem like you are in touch the the standard metagame (and this is coming from someone who is not in touch with it).
I forgot to mention the Canopy pick. I'm with your pick 100%. People get so single-mindedly focused on winning the draft that they forget the whole point of winning: rewards. If you can get 1 or 2 cards that make up for the cost of the draft, you've already won. Any match wins from then on are just Gravy. The removal spell will bring you a few hours of gratification (a better draft deck), but the Canopy [or the money from it] will potentially bring many days of improved decks. The only exception would be at a serious event where you stand to gain a lot more than a few expensive rares by winning the tournament.
Yeah, the correct build is definitely +Dragoons, +Stormfront Riders, +2 Land (Plains/Forest), -1 Island, -Crookclaw, -1 Trickster, -1 Totem.
You have nooooooooo idea how much I wanted to run the Hellkite off of reaches. Like, literally no clue.
That first pack was so tough. Like there were three first pick quality cards in my mind there. I still think that I made the wrong pick, after talking to a lot of friends about the draft.
Everything else you said I pretty much agree with. I felt that this draft was really smooth and things pretty much fell into place.
As for the Canopy pick that Anon wrote about, I know I am trying to become better, but I am a constructed player at heart, I figured well, I might as well take the seven dollar card instead of anything else. Had it not been in my colors I would have been much more disciplined.
Stormfront Riders and Dragoons probably would have been the better choice. They may not have been as aggressive as you would like, but it would have made it to where you wouldn't have had to play islands for some random cards. Crookclaw and trikster are mediocre alot of times due to how easy it is to deal 1 damage to a target these days. Drake you could have kept in. Other than that...if you were only going to play 16 land then you cut factory. You really want that in decks with 17-18 land. Other than that you made all the correct decisions from what I can see card wise. Of course I can be greedy sometimes, I probably would have put in fungal reaches and hellkite. Anyway, good job on the article man.
You're definitely getting better. I can find very few [important] picks that I disagree with.
Pick 1: I actually would have taken Ephemeron here. It's another close call, though. I wouldn't fault anyone for taking Enforcer or Invocation.
Pick 18: Even with 1 Sinew, I would probably have taken the Lion. So good.
Pick 25: I would hate-draft the Blood Knight, seeing as you're in White. I wouldn't have picked (or played) Reflex Sliver. You and your crazy Sliver sub-themes. =P
Pick 32: Bombs, then removal, then dudes. I gotta take the Judge Unworthy here, regardless of synergy.
Pick 39: Venser's Diffusion is much better than anything for your deck. A definite hate-draft.
Congrats on the win.
i don't know.. its cool you won and everything but when you're drafting rares just to draft rares (although you pulled a dual in your colors.. its not always the correct pick).. and everything on MTGO isn't "that" expensive..so to me it wouldn't make sense, especially if you are trying to become a better drafter, and you take basically a card that may not have been useful (say if it was a river of tears instead) but you took it just because it was a dual. i don't know.. i guess i'm not just "ooh rare crazy" like some people..
good article and analysis up until future sight..
Sry but u must have gotten about 22 Points...Elo works like this: You and your Opponent are nearly same rating= +7 pts for a win and -7 for a lose. For each about 40 pts between your and your opponents rating this is modified by +1/-1. So if u are 1650 and beat an 1850 u get about 11-12 pts
I actually ended up getting a full ten points here in this event. My first round opponent was mid 1800. Second round low 1700 and the finals was some on rated close to me. I do not understand how exactly the ELO system works. I do know however you would gain less points from beating 1400 rated players if your rating was closer to 1700.
u didnt mean u got 10 pts from the whole tourney did you? (that would be like 3 wins over 1400´s)
Yeah, I just came off running a three article series on Unplayable style rares for another site. Norin was a part of the third article - I like him and his playstyle online so I adapted and doubled his section for here. I tend to like casually fun cards like Norin - have written about cards ike Panglacial Wurm and Chimeras in the past.
kinda funny I run Norin as my Red Drop for Rainbow Stairwell. FFA. bad thing about him he makes you a big target
:)
When you talked to me about this on MoDo I didn't realize you'd toss one out so fast =)
A lot of great content
I really liked this article, and hope that this can continue as a series, looking at underused rares and such. Good stuff
Thanks for all your input. One thing is we do not have a paid editor yet due to the fact that the site makes no money. I edit any major flaws myself that I see but I will try to hire an editor soon. Sebastian did add all the pictures/etc himself. The autolinker is not up yet on these cards but will be soon. It's a lot of work getting new sets in the autolinker/mtgotraders/and deck database. I will get on it asap. But I do appreciate all the feedback and hope you continue to let us know what you think in such detail because it helps me know what to improve. I will seriously be looking for an editor asap also.
I'll get on it when I'm off work notice a few mistakes now that it's a day later, I'll have to take a little more care in the edit process next time.
I used to play this card in classic when anvil of bogardan just came out. Then i gained cabal therapy and madness.
This card is broken with the anvil and the low cost makes deckbuilding aound it easy.
Contagion has also been a favorite sideboard of mine against agro. As for the article...
If a comedian tries to make a funny joke on everything said, he'll stop being funny.
Same for the article ... we wanted a list and got some nice flavour. Thumbs up on that one.
How someone experiences magic is different for everyone. Cards that were "spiffy" in the days have been outmerchandised mostly by WOTC already. :)
I look forward to seeing these cards for trade, and i might play limited MED just for fun. But i didn't buy visions for the vampiric tutor and i wouldn't buy this set for playability either.
It's great to have you writing Brian. If you could update your avatar to one of your pics that would be great. If you need help doing so just post your picture on our forums and i'll do it for you. Great article!
-Heath