It is pauper specific but it is a good explanation of the thinking behind permission and how to play around it/against it.
The key points:
-- Deny your opponent good targets. (Getting a beater under their radar before they can get mana up to counter is a good start)
-- Hold good cards until you can play multiples in a turn and decide the order based on the likelihood of resolving the first one. If you are certain the person is only running mana denial counters (Pay 4 or counter this) be sure to hold back enough mana to pay for the counter.
-- Hit them with discard that hurts their hand and ability to recover into counter stability. (This one is tricky if you aren't playing a deck with lots of discard)
-- Play with cards that can't be countered. And those creatures that hit the table should be very hard to block (islandwalk for example gives blue denial fits.)
-- Count the counters played. Most good counter decks are limited to 12 or less counters because the deck needs to have room for win conditions. Be wary of buyback counters and recursion though.
-- If YOU can deny a draw spell do so. Particularly multicard draw. Being able to shut off the source of a counter deck's fuel can mean the difference between win and lose as the counter deck is as subject to running out of steam as any other deck. Artifacts/Enchantments that give extra cards are a prime target for this as is Jace, the planeswalker.
This was a treat that's for sure! I nice break from strategy and game play and a reminder to me that the art is often overlooked by magicplayers as they become more and more immersed in the game itself. Thanks for the reminder!
This article is very easy to read and understand and the main thing regarding discussion of the game is just fabulous. Well animations are getting high-Fi so I just hope that it gets pretty well and just waiting for it new version.
Also - there is (in my mind) a noticable difference between Hard and Soft counters. Soft counters are far more tolerable. If someone Remands my turn two Sakura Tribe Elder it is not as demoralizing as having it permanently countered. Not sure why. A Remand Followed by a Negate is enough to annoy a win though.
If too many people are quitting on your counter decks, maybe try switching to soft counters.
The reason I hate counter decks is the same reason I hate land destruction decks: resolving spells is why I play mtgo.
I don't mind losing games, as long as my deck gets to "do its thing". But there is a big psychological difference between resolving a creature and having it killed and never resolving a creature. I come to the game to play cards. Playing cards is Fun. The occasional LD spell or or counter effect is a tolerable tactic, but an entire strategy based around these effects is the very antithesis of Fun.
I think the reason a lot of people quit after seeing a single counter is that they are making an assumption that your entire strategy is to deny them the chance to resolve their spells (which is why they play). Quitting in these circumstances is a valid response only if their assumption is correct. Why should they continue to play if the goal of playing (resolving spells) is not forthcoming?
Losing the connection or quitting without at least a "GG" is merely a sign of that individuals immaturity and/or extreme frustration. Try not to hold it against them. Immaturity is to be expected in any activity that appeals to teens.
If anyone has any links to the above mentioned article on how to effectively stand up to counter decks I would appreciate the link. Most strategies I can think of are tier one decks, which i also think of as "not appropriate for the casual room" (but that is a topic for a different thread).
I mostly agree with you on this, and particularly on the issue of signaling; but I think you highly overestimate the variance of Rise. It won't *always* get back Serra Angel or Bogardan Hellkite -- but I've had remarkably few games of M10 that didn't end with at least *one* relevant creature in someone's graveyard. Heck, I've won more than one game by casting Rise on guys as dorky as Lightning Elemental, just using it as an impromptu Lava Axe. I'm not sure I've ever had Rise bring back something worse than, say, Borderland Ranger-ish -- and that's still pretty tasty.
To use a convenient (if far-from-accurate) poker analogy, the risk of picking Rise over Essence Scatter is a little like playing JTs: if you have to give it up, you give it up and you're a little the worse for it, but when it hits you're going to hit much bigger than you would otherwise. (This is as opposed to the raw power of Rise as a card, which I'd put closer to QQ than suited-connector range.)
To be fair to Rise (even though I had similar comments to your own above), it is also very good for recurring your *own* bomb.
I once had someone Cast Captain of the Watch. I killed her, he Rise'd him, I killed her, and he Rise'd a second time in one game. So this can be less conditional than you stated, but still far too conditional to be a bomb as you mentioned.
Essence Scatter is the safest but admittedly least exciting pick as it helps cut blue, goes with your first pick, and has a very consistent median value. By this I mean you can almost always expect it to trade with a creature. It can be better by trading with a bomb, but it will usually trade with a creature and isn't too hard to cast.
Both Black Knight and Rise from the Grave have the potential to be stronger vs. white or a dead bomb, respectively. Rise, I think, has the higher variance of the two; the Black Knight has the advantage of always 'at least' being a creature you can cast for value.
I notice in M10 more than any recent set a need to consider 'variance factor' in evaluating cards. Some cards have a high potential to be good (the aforementioned Oakenform) but also really bad. I think the trick in draft is to have a good mix of cards that are more stable, and that are higher risk-reward. In this case, so early in the draft, perhaps being a bit 'riskier' pays off, because you can somewhat tailor your draft around your earlier potentially strong cards (although in this case that doesn't seem to be the case too much). On the other hand, perhaps it's better to build as stable a deck as possible early and then wait for more directed opportunities for taking riskier cards that can help your game plan.
I honestly think signaling considerations are not prime here.
How embarrassing. Toss one more in the GW column when Bu mulled to 5. However I agree with the article that this is a not better than a 50/50 match for GW. I have been playing pauper for only about 2 weeks. I saw a comment about this format being dominated by one archtype, but that has not been my experience at all. There seem to be a large number of decks that can compete in the format. M
I would run Inferno Elemental in a base-red deck, but P1P1, it's not a reason to head towards a base-red deck, particularly over a game-ender like Howl, or a card that cost-effectively counters 2/3rds of the spells in your opponents' decks.
I don't rate Rise that highly. It will only be as bomby as whatever your opponent plays, and you'll need to have dealth with your opponent's bomb for it to work. It requires 2 conditions to be useful, which theoretically isn't going to happen most of the time. Most likely scenario with Rise is nabbing a meh average creature.
Bombs should be defined as effects nearly unconditionally great. Rise has the potential to be totally backbreaking, but only in very specific circumstances.
I'd take one of the 2 good blue cards, cutting blue and sending a strong signal. The 3/2 soldier isnt bad either and fits well with the UW evasion/soldiers/counters archetype.
The fact that he name-checks Bouguereau drew me to comment. The first piece of art my wife & I ever agreed on was one of his: A Young Girl Defending Herself against Eros. I think I can see a little of Bouguereau in his style.
I think people forget how good the art on some of the cards is - I've seen a few pieces that I think should be in galleries.
My pick would be the essence scatter over the Rise from the grave because as it is only the 2nd pick, I don't want to move into a second colour just yet because if a decent card comes in the next pick that isnt B or U I want to be free to take it without moving into a third colour.
i don't really know why desire is not a powerful deck maybe ad naus is just quicker. i had this convo with rukcus the other day and he brought up there are not enough targets in a desire deck as of yet iggy/will ....while it could possibly see play in a tes/fetchland tendril/doomsday deck .
in the 16 sealed decks i did i only got 3 truly awful decks going 0-2 drop with each. I guess i was lucky with my rares but i will say that in m10 you should be building for consistency and not power. for example. i have left master of the wild hunt and garruk out of the main deck even with some semi decent green because there wasent enough depth.
Maybe your luck will turn around and you can start consistently opening earth quake as i did.
I am really not sure about this pick. I, like many, came upon Rise from the Grave and Essence Scatter as the two picks to consider. I ended up taking Essence Scatter. I am a consistency whore, I like spells I know are virtually always useful, and I like keeping it simple color wise. If I am given 2 choices and one is on color, I am heavily inclined to stay on color.
In this case however, I do not want to be heavily blue in most cases. Picking an Essence Scatter doesn't commit me to U though, and that is the pick I went with.
I strongly disagree about Rise from the Grave being even near bomb status. Godot classifies a bomb as the following:
If cast in a late game stalemate, it will swing the game in your favor. If cast when you are behind, it will put you back to even or ahead. If cast when ahead, you win very quickly if not outright.
To me, Rise from the Grave is almost never any of these, although it situationally can be. I think it's often easy to remember the times when you Rise someones Captain of the Watch and forget the times when either you lost with Rise in your hand, or were forced to rise a Wind Drake because it was the best target or you had to do it or lose.
I think Rise has great potential, but is a very high variance card and I would probably take the always-good-in-limited Essence Scatter as the safer pick.
This pick also flows well with our first pick, Air Elemental in the sense that its on color and works well with the U gameplan of putting up flyers and protecting them.
I am not going to comment on the draft, but rather your QP strategy.
If your aim is to get QPs, drafts seem like a poor way to go about it. Daily events pay 3 QPs for 4-0 and 1 for 3-1. 3-1 is easier to do than 3-0 and with a chance at 4-0 getting you 3QPs it just seems far easier to obtain QPs in this way. Also I am of the opinion that far too few people play swiss drafts. Your first round win % needs to be quite high to make 4322 more profitable than swiss, plus swiss drafts are much softer all the way through which makes getting the QP easier and making your match win % higher in all rounds than it would be in 4322 or 8-4 and of course they have lower variance in payouts if you are risk averse at all. I do not play everyday and I have 26 points on the month. Much of this is due to daily events, so try to schedule in a few sealed if you are only a limited player next month and see if that helps the cause.
If you are playing drafts only because that is what you love to do, then sorry for my comment :).
As an aside, I read articles on this website occasionally but this is my first post. Scoopphase is a friend of mine and I started reading on here because of him. So hello everyone :)
why take turtle or ice cage when either one ties you into a card type (creature or enchantment) and you want to retain max. flexibility for your next pick. i'm surprised nobody has mentioned how tough a pack this is, for Angel's Mercy vs Burst of Speed. I always like to take sorceries and instants so i don't get committed to the playground too quickly. Rise from the grave commits you to graveyard and black. Turtle pushes your opponent into blue which is good for you. personally, i think would go with Angel's Mercy hoping to cascade into cascading sunlight ftw!
I enjoyed this a lot. I wonder if he WOTC specifically send him briefs for female figures, and hand close-ups. Just glancing up the article, he seems to do a lot of them! Giancola seems to like the hands too. I wonder if he taught that bit. Anyway, very cool stuff.
I think my favourites of his are the new holy day, and the black mox with the creepily covetous hands.
I agree with about 97% of what you are saying.
-----------
I think the question revolves around whether or not a 3rd deck choice exists in the 'worst-case' scenario, i.e. Choice A - Strip Mine Recursion.dec, Choice B - Anti-Strip Mine Recursion.dec, or Choice C - Deck That Trumps A & B.dec. If Choice A exists and proves to be powerful (which I think we agree has potential), Choice B will naturally develop (if possible - if it is not possible because of the format's card pool, etc. then a temporary ban on Strip Mine may be in order). Once Choice B develops, Choice C can emerge (again if possible - same caveats). I tend to feel like you are jumping the gun and saying that Choices B and C are not possible based on the current card pool, and this is the point that I disagree with. Until Choice A proves itself overly powerful, I won't call it a problem. Ultimately, until Choice A shows up, Choices B and C cannot and will not be developed.
-----------
For my opinion, I'm okay with a temporary format 'disruption'. If nothing else, it will shake up the meta for a few tournaments (which I believe is a good thing). I think a stale format is nearly as bad as an unbalanced one. I also like the idea of building a deck that the meta is wholly unprepared for, but that's just me.
-----------
I'll probably join one of these forums to further discuss Mind's Desire, but why hasn't Classic broken it? With the proper resources (read funds), I would think a broken Desire deck would emerge.
-----
FB...
Thanks for all the comments but to be honest all credits should go to Volkan. He really is a nice guy and without his honest and detailed answers, this could have been a real bad article/interview.
The hardest part for me actually was to come up with good questions to ask to such a great artist and now I can tell that the outcome is satisfying.
Thanks again for the comments and keep enjoying those great Magic arts!!
I can't say I would take the turtle because how many times will the turtle be the answer to an opponents bomb over how many times would scatter answer an opponents bomb?
I could also say that top decking a turtle mid game isn't going to save you or allow you to win where scatter could do both in the right situation.
However thats just my rationalization of scatter over turtle but in the end I would have to take Rise to either cut it or hope black pans out down the road.
It is a very hard choice between the two and there are arguements for and against both so it comes down to your own gut feeling.
http://puremtgo.com/articles/pauper-stopper-how-beat-muc
It is pauper specific but it is a good explanation of the thinking behind permission and how to play around it/against it.
The key points:
-- Deny your opponent good targets. (Getting a beater under their radar before they can get mana up to counter is a good start)
-- Hold good cards until you can play multiples in a turn and decide the order based on the likelihood of resolving the first one. If you are certain the person is only running mana denial counters (Pay 4 or counter this) be sure to hold back enough mana to pay for the counter.
-- Hit them with discard that hurts their hand and ability to recover into counter stability. (This one is tricky if you aren't playing a deck with lots of discard)
-- Play with cards that can't be countered. And those creatures that hit the table should be very hard to block (islandwalk for example gives blue denial fits.)
-- Count the counters played. Most good counter decks are limited to 12 or less counters because the deck needs to have room for win conditions. Be wary of buyback counters and recursion though.
-- If YOU can deny a draw spell do so. Particularly multicard draw. Being able to shut off the source of a counter deck's fuel can mean the difference between win and lose as the counter deck is as subject to running out of steam as any other deck. Artifacts/Enchantments that give extra cards are a prime target for this as is Jace, the planeswalker.
Hope this helps a bit.
This was a treat that's for sure! I nice break from strategy and game play and a reminder to me that the art is often overlooked by magicplayers as they become more and more immersed in the game itself. Thanks for the reminder!
This article is very easy to read and understand and the main thing regarding discussion of the game is just fabulous. Well animations are getting high-Fi so I just hope that it gets pretty well and just waiting for it new version.
As best I can tell I ended the game at 5 life as such it didn't impact the final outcome of the game.
Also - there is (in my mind) a noticable difference between Hard and Soft counters. Soft counters are far more tolerable. If someone Remands my turn two Sakura Tribe Elder it is not as demoralizing as having it permanently countered. Not sure why. A Remand Followed by a Negate is enough to annoy a win though.
If too many people are quitting on your counter decks, maybe try switching to soft counters.
The reason I hate counter decks is the same reason I hate land destruction decks: resolving spells is why I play mtgo.
I don't mind losing games, as long as my deck gets to "do its thing". But there is a big psychological difference between resolving a creature and having it killed and never resolving a creature. I come to the game to play cards. Playing cards is Fun. The occasional LD spell or or counter effect is a tolerable tactic, but an entire strategy based around these effects is the very antithesis of Fun.
I think the reason a lot of people quit after seeing a single counter is that they are making an assumption that your entire strategy is to deny them the chance to resolve their spells (which is why they play). Quitting in these circumstances is a valid response only if their assumption is correct. Why should they continue to play if the goal of playing (resolving spells) is not forthcoming?
Losing the connection or quitting without at least a "GG" is merely a sign of that individuals immaturity and/or extreme frustration. Try not to hold it against them. Immaturity is to be expected in any activity that appeals to teens.
If anyone has any links to the above mentioned article on how to effectively stand up to counter decks I would appreciate the link. Most strategies I can think of are tier one decks, which i also think of as "not appropriate for the casual room" (but that is a topic for a different thread).
I mostly agree with you on this, and particularly on the issue of signaling; but I think you highly overestimate the variance of Rise. It won't *always* get back Serra Angel or Bogardan Hellkite -- but I've had remarkably few games of M10 that didn't end with at least *one* relevant creature in someone's graveyard. Heck, I've won more than one game by casting Rise on guys as dorky as Lightning Elemental, just using it as an impromptu Lava Axe. I'm not sure I've ever had Rise bring back something worse than, say, Borderland Ranger-ish -- and that's still pretty tasty.
To use a convenient (if far-from-accurate) poker analogy, the risk of picking Rise over Essence Scatter is a little like playing JTs: if you have to give it up, you give it up and you're a little the worse for it, but when it hits you're going to hit much bigger than you would otherwise. (This is as opposed to the raw power of Rise as a card, which I'd put closer to QQ than suited-connector range.)
To be fair to Rise (even though I had similar comments to your own above), it is also very good for recurring your *own* bomb.
I once had someone Cast Captain of the Watch. I killed her, he Rise'd him, I killed her, and he Rise'd a second time in one game. So this can be less conditional than you stated, but still far too conditional to be a bomb as you mentioned.
Essence Scatter is the safest but admittedly least exciting pick as it helps cut blue, goes with your first pick, and has a very consistent median value. By this I mean you can almost always expect it to trade with a creature. It can be better by trading with a bomb, but it will usually trade with a creature and isn't too hard to cast.
Both Black Knight and Rise from the Grave have the potential to be stronger vs. white or a dead bomb, respectively. Rise, I think, has the higher variance of the two; the Black Knight has the advantage of always 'at least' being a creature you can cast for value.
I notice in M10 more than any recent set a need to consider 'variance factor' in evaluating cards. Some cards have a high potential to be good (the aforementioned Oakenform) but also really bad. I think the trick in draft is to have a good mix of cards that are more stable, and that are higher risk-reward. In this case, so early in the draft, perhaps being a bit 'riskier' pays off, because you can somewhat tailor your draft around your earlier potentially strong cards (although in this case that doesn't seem to be the case too much). On the other hand, perhaps it's better to build as stable a deck as possible early and then wait for more directed opportunities for taking riskier cards that can help your game plan.
I honestly think signaling considerations are not prime here.
How embarrassing. Toss one more in the GW column when Bu mulled to 5. However I agree with the article that this is a not better than a 50/50 match for GW. I have been playing pauper for only about 2 weeks. I saw a comment about this format being dominated by one archtype, but that has not been my experience at all. There seem to be a large number of decks that can compete in the format. M
I would run Inferno Elemental in a base-red deck, but P1P1, it's not a reason to head towards a base-red deck, particularly over a game-ender like Howl, or a card that cost-effectively counters 2/3rds of the spells in your opponents' decks.
I don't rate Rise that highly. It will only be as bomby as whatever your opponent plays, and you'll need to have dealth with your opponent's bomb for it to work. It requires 2 conditions to be useful, which theoretically isn't going to happen most of the time. Most likely scenario with Rise is nabbing a meh average creature.
Bombs should be defined as effects nearly unconditionally great. Rise has the potential to be totally backbreaking, but only in very specific circumstances.
I'd take one of the 2 good blue cards, cutting blue and sending a strong signal. The 3/2 soldier isnt bad either and fits well with the UW evasion/soldiers/counters archetype.
The fact that he name-checks Bouguereau drew me to comment. The first piece of art my wife & I ever agreed on was one of his: A Young Girl Defending Herself against Eros. I think I can see a little of Bouguereau in his style.
I think people forget how good the art on some of the cards is - I've seen a few pieces that I think should be in galleries.
Is this post a joke?
My pick would be the essence scatter over the Rise from the grave because as it is only the 2nd pick, I don't want to move into a second colour just yet because if a decent card comes in the next pick that isnt B or U I want to be free to take it without moving into a third colour.
i don't really know why desire is not a powerful deck maybe ad naus is just quicker. i had this convo with rukcus the other day and he brought up there are not enough targets in a desire deck as of yet iggy/will ....while it could possibly see play in a tes/fetchland tendril/doomsday deck .
That truly blows.
in the 16 sealed decks i did i only got 3 truly awful decks going 0-2 drop with each. I guess i was lucky with my rares but i will say that in m10 you should be building for consistency and not power. for example. i have left master of the wild hunt and garruk out of the main deck even with some semi decent green because there wasent enough depth.
Maybe your luck will turn around and you can start consistently opening earth quake as i did.
I am really not sure about this pick. I, like many, came upon Rise from the Grave and Essence Scatter as the two picks to consider. I ended up taking Essence Scatter. I am a consistency whore, I like spells I know are virtually always useful, and I like keeping it simple color wise. If I am given 2 choices and one is on color, I am heavily inclined to stay on color.
In this case however, I do not want to be heavily blue in most cases. Picking an Essence Scatter doesn't commit me to U though, and that is the pick I went with.
I strongly disagree about Rise from the Grave being even near bomb status. Godot classifies a bomb as the following:
If cast in a late game stalemate, it will swing the game in your favor. If cast when you are behind, it will put you back to even or ahead. If cast when ahead, you win very quickly if not outright.
To me, Rise from the Grave is almost never any of these, although it situationally can be. I think it's often easy to remember the times when you Rise someones Captain of the Watch and forget the times when either you lost with Rise in your hand, or were forced to rise a Wind Drake because it was the best target or you had to do it or lose.
I think Rise has great potential, but is a very high variance card and I would probably take the always-good-in-limited Essence Scatter as the safer pick.
This pick also flows well with our first pick, Air Elemental in the sense that its on color and works well with the U gameplan of putting up flyers and protecting them.
I am not going to comment on the draft, but rather your QP strategy.
If your aim is to get QPs, drafts seem like a poor way to go about it. Daily events pay 3 QPs for 4-0 and 1 for 3-1. 3-1 is easier to do than 3-0 and with a chance at 4-0 getting you 3QPs it just seems far easier to obtain QPs in this way. Also I am of the opinion that far too few people play swiss drafts. Your first round win % needs to be quite high to make 4322 more profitable than swiss, plus swiss drafts are much softer all the way through which makes getting the QP easier and making your match win % higher in all rounds than it would be in 4322 or 8-4 and of course they have lower variance in payouts if you are risk averse at all. I do not play everyday and I have 26 points on the month. Much of this is due to daily events, so try to schedule in a few sealed if you are only a limited player next month and see if that helps the cause.
If you are playing drafts only because that is what you love to do, then sorry for my comment :).
As an aside, I read articles on this website occasionally but this is my first post. Scoopphase is a friend of mine and I started reading on here because of him. So hello everyone :)
Tap
why take turtle or ice cage when either one ties you into a card type (creature or enchantment) and you want to retain max. flexibility for your next pick. i'm surprised nobody has mentioned how tough a pack this is, for Angel's Mercy vs Burst of Speed. I always like to take sorceries and instants so i don't get committed to the playground too quickly. Rise from the grave commits you to graveyard and black. Turtle pushes your opponent into blue which is good for you. personally, i think would go with Angel's Mercy hoping to cascade into cascading sunlight ftw!
I enjoyed this a lot. I wonder if he WOTC specifically send him briefs for female figures, and hand close-ups. Just glancing up the article, he seems to do a lot of them! Giancola seems to like the hands too. I wonder if he taught that bit. Anyway, very cool stuff.
I think my favourites of his are the new holy day, and the black mox with the creepily covetous hands.
I agree with about 97% of what you are saying.
-----------
I think the question revolves around whether or not a 3rd deck choice exists in the 'worst-case' scenario, i.e. Choice A - Strip Mine Recursion.dec, Choice B - Anti-Strip Mine Recursion.dec, or Choice C - Deck That Trumps A & B.dec. If Choice A exists and proves to be powerful (which I think we agree has potential), Choice B will naturally develop (if possible - if it is not possible because of the format's card pool, etc. then a temporary ban on Strip Mine may be in order). Once Choice B develops, Choice C can emerge (again if possible - same caveats). I tend to feel like you are jumping the gun and saying that Choices B and C are not possible based on the current card pool, and this is the point that I disagree with. Until Choice A proves itself overly powerful, I won't call it a problem. Ultimately, until Choice A shows up, Choices B and C cannot and will not be developed.
-----------
For my opinion, I'm okay with a temporary format 'disruption'. If nothing else, it will shake up the meta for a few tournaments (which I believe is a good thing). I think a stale format is nearly as bad as an unbalanced one. I also like the idea of building a deck that the meta is wholly unprepared for, but that's just me.
-----------
I'll probably join one of these forums to further discuss Mind's Desire, but why hasn't Classic broken it? With the proper resources (read funds), I would think a broken Desire deck would emerge.
-----
FB...
my goodness
well put. much more eloquent then my ramblings.
Thanks for all the comments but to be honest all credits should go to Volkan. He really is a nice guy and without his honest and detailed answers, this could have been a real bad article/interview.
The hardest part for me actually was to come up with good questions to ask to such a great artist and now I can tell that the outcome is satisfying.
Thanks again for the comments and keep enjoying those great Magic arts!!
LE
I can't say I would take the turtle because how many times will the turtle be the answer to an opponents bomb over how many times would scatter answer an opponents bomb?
I could also say that top decking a turtle mid game isn't going to save you or allow you to win where scatter could do both in the right situation.
However thats just my rationalization of scatter over turtle but in the end I would have to take Rise to either cut it or hope black pans out down the road.
It is a very hard choice between the two and there are arguements for and against both so it comes down to your own gut feeling.