As I said a couple times in the article, Cruel Ultimatum only comes online after the game is fully under control and I don’t have to worry about a 3 on 1. Or actually a 2 on 1, since the guy I Ultimatumed isn’t likely a threat anymore. Black Myojin was in the deck for a long time – until someone played it against me. It’s not a kosher card for a casual format. The counters aren’t necessary since I have infy wraths and pinpoint removal spells for threats, and they’re the epitome of card disadvantage in a game with 3 opponents.
Reliquary Tower is also unnecessary, since I don’t sit on anything, play card draw only when I need to, and don’t draw 4 a turn until the end game, when it doesn’t matter. I rarely have to discard (maybe once a game) and the recursion in the deck keeps it from mattering.
I'd say this like the bannings falls under the "where do you draw the line" problem.
Where is the line between someone that's "spiking" and someone that is causal. Also the problem with forcing a tournament with prizes to be casucal is that it's a tournament.. why shouldn't you try to win?
I like the swiss idea + flat pay rate better.
All that being said I wouldn't stand for rudeness in a tournament. It's tricky to tell someone "no you can't play this competitive deck in this competition". However if they are being rude just kick them out. I've had to do it at fnm's I've hosted and seen others do it as well (to the point where the offenders were banned from the entire store).
This site needs to give this argument a rest now.
It is becoming a joke; nearly every other article on PURE is about CTW and looking at the problems surrounding it.
As has been said there is nothing we can do about it until wizards take a good look at the format.
I have been an avid supporter of the PRE and played in most but I gave up on it a few weeks ago due to the problems mentioned above Example Casual Soldiers V's Tier 1 Classic Merfolk what is the point??
No guys until wizards do something CTW will stay as a format for friends to play each other on a casual basis only. They are the ones that get paid to test, look at and decide on what gets banned what stays and on general do a good job. They just need to review CTW and until they do these articles are pointless as each one it very much the same.
Sorry just my feelings on what is my favourite casual format, we all need to move on.
This might be a little draconian, but can't the event organizer just decide not to award those who are not playing in the spirit of his event a prize even if they win?
Sure, the winner might get bent out of shape, and there's a risk of bad feelings all around, but it seems like an easy fix to this 'problem'. Spikes can go ahead and join if they want, but they're at least not gonna get a prize out of it. Of course, this falls apart if they're just in it to bully people around, and not interested in the money at all.
Agreed Tribal has for a long time suffered from not enough bannings, even if no end a large number must be.
Bazaar, Necro, Hermit Druid, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Consultation, Earthcraft at least should follow Legacy banned list rather than Classic restricted.
1- Classic Tribal Wars: There is nothing anyone can do about it. It is what it is. Classic is a format of crazy combos, and this version of it is no exception. I also agree that banning specific cards is a road without an end.
2- Casual Classic Tribal Wars: Such a format does not exist. Because everyone understands something different from casual. A deck could be casual to me but that could be cutthroat to someone else.
3- Extended Tribal Wars: We have the same problem. I will try to play my "casual" extended deck and some clan members will come and bash me with their Dark Depths Vampires or with Cloudstone Trio Elves or with their Thopter Foundry Wizards. Oh and every deck will be surely 20 tribe members + 4 Tarmogoyfs. So this format doesn't make any sense to me either. Simply because of the power level. Simply because Grindstone decks will be replaced with Dark Depths decks. Card names may be different but the frustration will be the same.
4- Standard Tribal Wars: You wrote something very true in your article. You said "It also appeals to players who like winning based off of play skills rather than deck building skills. You may have a similar deck to mine, but I can still win because I can outplay you."
I agree. And I like the fact that you can outplay me even though we play the same decks. You outplay me NOT because of some cards you own and I can't even dream of buying, but you do so because you're a better player than me. I have no problem with losing to skill. No one has. But people get angry when they lose to cards they don't and can't have.
The summary is this: If you like variety and more options, then play Classic. But never ever forget that it is a format of combos. If you, however, are sick of those combos, then play Standard. It may not offer many different options but it is healthy at the very least. Extended? Nah, I prefer Grindstone over Dark Depths. At least it looks cooler.
While I can see some argument against, say, timewalk, as being unfair/unfun/too big of a target, I disagree with a few of your card choices. Reliquary Tower, as IA4L mentioned, is a MUST in these types of decks. That way, when you're popping your decrees for 10 cards, or drawing 4 twice in a turn and so forth, you don't have to waste them.
Also, Cruel Ult is a sweet card... but terrible for 5C, imo. Terrible is hyperbole, but it doesn't work that well. You either piss off the other two (HOLY COW CRUEL ULT!?!?! EWW) or you don't get THAT much bang for your buck. A better option is the Black Myojin (unless you feel that wiping hands is somehow lamer than wiping boards).
Finally, you're missing some REALLY important counters. Force of Will (understandable if you don't want to pay for it), Pact of Negation, the Coldsnap pitch spell, Decree of Silence, Venser, Whelk, are all cards I don't want to battle with 5C without. They allow you to do broken things and still protect yourself, or allow you to tutor up answers at instant speed to almost any card.
Not a bad build, and I do enjoy the passive-aggressive wrath build of 5c, but I think you are missing some important cards.
I played the list a dozen times today...the nip..is actually great, was the main mvp majority of the time...I wouldn't have believed it. However, the deck is badly mana flooded in most games...I'd take out two lands and add some goods, maybe the flying gargoyle for more discard?
I think Kor Sanctifiers are the best choice for artifact/enchantment removal since you get a warm body and they are amazing with a set of Skyfishers.
This is the list Im working with now:
4 Nightsky Mimic
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Blind Hunter
4 Nip Gwyllion
4 Shrieking Grotesque (much easier on the manabase than Chittering and has evasion)
2 Oblivion Ring (Arrows is total hotness but as Alex stated, you need some stuff for Dead Dog and removing the target permanently is so powerful against that deck plus Ring is a nice catch-all for non-creatures and pro-black stuff)
4 Journey to Nowhere
4 Edge of the Divinity
4 Castigate
6 removal spells now to help hold the fort down/clear the way while only giving up Sign against control.
Doubtful that it would sadly. That is a complex piece of programming I believe since each added check adds a ton more deck checking to the the program and slows down performance too. On the other hand if I am wrong and WotC is planning this very thing I will be quite happy.
So play a deck that punishes that strategy. Man lands, Exile cards(Plow, path, duplicant), removal for cards that give recursion affects (Relic, Crypt, Pillage, etc)
It's a better list, but I would never be caught running Nip Gwyllion. Cards like Blind Hunter are strong and have synergy, but Nip is an awful card run purely for synergy. I also agree with rickwins, martyr of sands is a house against aggro.
I teamed Martyr of Sands with the nightsky deck a few weeks ago and have been running it in TPDC events. Gaining a bunch of life on turn 2 can be a big help. I also use the grim harvest card advantage engine. It just seems to lose steam vs teachings. I probably need to add some sign in bloods to keep the hand full.
Kiki-jiki was in a previous build based around creatures with CitP abilities, but he doesn't fit in with the Wrath-centric control build. I don't like the idea of ending the game with a one-card combo -- though I like to win, I want the games to be interactive.
Liliana Vess and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker would fit into this deck easily. Vess has a reusable tutor ability and her final ability is synergistic with all the Wraths in the deck. Nicol Bolas would works very much as a better Cruel Ultimatum. With mana ramp, Bolas would be more devastating than Liliana Vess.
I am amazed that this deck runs both Tooth and Nail and Eternal Witness without Kiki-jiki. In 5-color decks, I see this set of cards run fairly often. Often the prime target for Eternal Witness is a Time Warp.
From a personal stand point, I have enjoyed some of the intriguing combos in the past that I have seen various people like AJ, LE, Flippers et al play normally at the time I'm cursing their names, but normally it ends up being that's cool I wouldn't have thought of.
I'm no way a fantastic magic player like some of the other players who come on a regular basis, but I've always loved playing tribal decks, so for me this is fantastic tourney. I would personally love the idea of Swiss or build rules for the week (with a good couple of weeks notice), or if not what about a special prize for most original/unusual deck. Perhaps have a vote in the article by members and you can't vote for yourself.
srsly, sanhedrin. Why was lord of the pit 4 tix last week? that has to be some anomoly OR a typo,haha.
I think the first part of the article is missing?
And why did Lord of the Pit cost 4 tix last week? That brings me back...
As I said a couple times in the article, Cruel Ultimatum only comes online after the game is fully under control and I don’t have to worry about a 3 on 1. Or actually a 2 on 1, since the guy I Ultimatumed isn’t likely a threat anymore. Black Myojin was in the deck for a long time – until someone played it against me. It’s not a kosher card for a casual format. The counters aren’t necessary since I have infy wraths and pinpoint removal spells for threats, and they’re the epitome of card disadvantage in a game with 3 opponents.
Reliquary Tower is also unnecessary, since I don’t sit on anything, play card draw only when I need to, and don’t draw 4 a turn until the end game, when it doesn’t matter. I rarely have to discard (maybe once a game) and the recursion in the deck keeps it from mattering.
I'd say this like the bannings falls under the "where do you draw the line" problem.
Where is the line between someone that's "spiking" and someone that is causal. Also the problem with forcing a tournament with prizes to be casucal is that it's a tournament.. why shouldn't you try to win?
I like the swiss idea + flat pay rate better.
All that being said I wouldn't stand for rudeness in a tournament. It's tricky to tell someone "no you can't play this competitive deck in this competition". However if they are being rude just kick them out. I've had to do it at fnm's I've hosted and seen others do it as well (to the point where the offenders were banned from the entire store).
This site needs to give this argument a rest now.
It is becoming a joke; nearly every other article on PURE is about CTW and looking at the problems surrounding it.
As has been said there is nothing we can do about it until wizards take a good look at the format.
I have been an avid supporter of the PRE and played in most but I gave up on it a few weeks ago due to the problems mentioned above Example Casual Soldiers V's Tier 1 Classic Merfolk what is the point??
No guys until wizards do something CTW will stay as a format for friends to play each other on a casual basis only. They are the ones that get paid to test, look at and decide on what gets banned what stays and on general do a good job. They just need to review CTW and until they do these articles are pointless as each one it very much the same.
Sorry just my feelings on what is my favourite casual format, we all need to move on.
This might be a little draconian, but can't the event organizer just decide not to award those who are not playing in the spirit of his event a prize even if they win?
Sure, the winner might get bent out of shape, and there's a risk of bad feelings all around, but it seems like an easy fix to this 'problem'. Spikes can go ahead and join if they want, but they're at least not gonna get a prize out of it. Of course, this falls apart if they're just in it to bully people around, and not interested in the money at all.
Agreed Tribal has for a long time suffered from not enough bannings, even if no end a large number must be.
Bazaar, Necro, Hermit Druid, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Consultation, Earthcraft at least should follow Legacy banned list rather than Classic restricted.
My thoughts:
1- Classic Tribal Wars: There is nothing anyone can do about it. It is what it is. Classic is a format of crazy combos, and this version of it is no exception. I also agree that banning specific cards is a road without an end.
2- Casual Classic Tribal Wars: Such a format does not exist. Because everyone understands something different from casual. A deck could be casual to me but that could be cutthroat to someone else.
3- Extended Tribal Wars: We have the same problem. I will try to play my "casual" extended deck and some clan members will come and bash me with their Dark Depths Vampires or with Cloudstone Trio Elves or with their Thopter Foundry Wizards. Oh and every deck will be surely 20 tribe members + 4 Tarmogoyfs. So this format doesn't make any sense to me either. Simply because of the power level. Simply because Grindstone decks will be replaced with Dark Depths decks. Card names may be different but the frustration will be the same.
4- Standard Tribal Wars: You wrote something very true in your article. You said "It also appeals to players who like winning based off of play skills rather than deck building skills. You may have a similar deck to mine, but I can still win because I can outplay you."
I agree. And I like the fact that you can outplay me even though we play the same decks. You outplay me NOT because of some cards you own and I can't even dream of buying, but you do so because you're a better player than me. I have no problem with losing to skill. No one has. But people get angry when they lose to cards they don't and can't have.
The summary is this: If you like variety and more options, then play Classic. But never ever forget that it is a format of combos. If you, however, are sick of those combos, then play Standard. It may not offer many different options but it is healthy at the very least. Extended? Nah, I prefer Grindstone over Dark Depths. At least it looks cooler.
And that's all I have to say.
LE
While I can see some argument against, say, timewalk, as being unfair/unfun/too big of a target, I disagree with a few of your card choices. Reliquary Tower, as IA4L mentioned, is a MUST in these types of decks. That way, when you're popping your decrees for 10 cards, or drawing 4 twice in a turn and so forth, you don't have to waste them.
Also, Cruel Ult is a sweet card... but terrible for 5C, imo. Terrible is hyperbole, but it doesn't work that well. You either piss off the other two (HOLY COW CRUEL ULT!?!?! EWW) or you don't get THAT much bang for your buck. A better option is the Black Myojin (unless you feel that wiping hands is somehow lamer than wiping boards).
Finally, you're missing some REALLY important counters. Force of Will (understandable if you don't want to pay for it), Pact of Negation, the Coldsnap pitch spell, Decree of Silence, Venser, Whelk, are all cards I don't want to battle with 5C without. They allow you to do broken things and still protect yourself, or allow you to tutor up answers at instant speed to almost any card.
Not a bad build, and I do enjoy the passive-aggressive wrath build of 5c, but I think you are missing some important cards.
the overlapping of restricted/banned lists can cause such issue as well
Right, but I mean in the context it was used in the article.
I played the list a dozen times today...the nip..is actually great, was the main mvp majority of the time...I wouldn't have believed it. However, the deck is badly mana flooded in most games...I'd take out two lands and add some goods, maybe the flying gargoyle for more discard?
Yeah, it's just metagaming. You play around the strategies that dominate, then YOU dominate.
I think Kor Sanctifiers are the best choice for artifact/enchantment removal since you get a warm body and they are amazing with a set of Skyfishers.
This is the list Im working with now:
4 Nightsky Mimic
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Blind Hunter
4 Nip Gwyllion
4 Shrieking Grotesque (much easier on the manabase than Chittering and has evasion)
2 Oblivion Ring (Arrows is total hotness but as Alex stated, you need some stuff for Dead Dog and removing the target permanently is so powerful against that deck plus Ring is a nice catch-all for non-creatures and pro-black stuff)
4 Journey to Nowhere
4 Edge of the Divinity
4 Castigate
6 removal spells now to help hold the fort down/clear the way while only giving up Sign against control.
Doubtful that it would sadly. That is a complex piece of programming I believe since each added check adds a ton more deck checking to the the program and slows down performance too. On the other hand if I am wrong and WotC is planning this very thing I will be quite happy.
So play a deck that punishes that strategy. Man lands, Exile cards(Plow, path, duplicant), removal for cards that give recursion affects (Relic, Crypt, Pillage, etc)
Depends on where in the sentence it appears. At the beginning of the sentence "Greg Weiss and I" is correct.
As in: "Greg Weiss and I went to the store."
It's a better list, but I would never be caught running Nip Gwyllion. Cards like Blind Hunter are strong and have synergy, but Nip is an awful card run purely for synergy. I also agree with rickwins, martyr of sands is a house against aggro.
I teamed Martyr of Sands with the nightsky deck a few weeks ago and have been running it in TPDC events. Gaining a bunch of life on turn 2 can be a big help. I also use the grim harvest card advantage engine. It just seems to lose steam vs teachings. I probably need to add some sign in bloods to keep the hand full.
No, it's "Greg Weiss and me." You are the object. You're right though, it isn't "myself."
It should be "Greg Weiss and I," not "Gregg Weiss and myself."
Oh weird.. the sideboard listed only has 11 cards. What do you recommend for the missing 4?
Those are some PWs I can stand behind.
Kiki-jiki was in a previous build based around creatures with CitP abilities, but he doesn't fit in with the Wrath-centric control build. I don't like the idea of ending the game with a one-card combo -- though I like to win, I want the games to be interactive.
Liliana Vess and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker would fit into this deck easily. Vess has a reusable tutor ability and her final ability is synergistic with all the Wraths in the deck. Nicol Bolas would works very much as a better Cruel Ultimatum. With mana ramp, Bolas would be more devastating than Liliana Vess.
I am amazed that this deck runs both Tooth and Nail and Eternal Witness without Kiki-jiki. In 5-color decks, I see this set of cards run fairly often. Often the prime target for Eternal Witness is a Time Warp.
From a personal stand point, I have enjoyed some of the intriguing combos in the past that I have seen various people like AJ, LE, Flippers et al play normally at the time I'm cursing their names, but normally it ends up being that's cool I wouldn't have thought of.
I'm no way a fantastic magic player like some of the other players who come on a regular basis, but I've always loved playing tribal decks, so for me this is fantastic tourney. I would personally love the idea of Swiss or build rules for the week (with a good couple of weeks notice), or if not what about a special prize for most original/unusual deck. Perhaps have a vote in the article by members and you can't vote for yourself.