I so very much love this deck and it's THE deck I will play when I start playing Legacy once again.
A question: I think of playing this deck as a WU one and without a third color. 4x Stoneforge and 2x Vendilion Clique are going to be all my creatures and then I will fill the rest with counterspells and Batterskulls and Jaces and such things. So what do you think, is it not better? Opposing Blood Moons won't effect me at all and Wastelands won't find many targets. My secondary wincon will be Jace and Elspeth of course.
Second question: I saw people playing Sword of the Meek / Thopter Foundry combo in this the deck (Stoneforge can get that lone Sword of the Meek) as well as the Countertop combo as well. Do you think it is too greedy or can it be done?
Nice article by the way.
LE
PS: I'm not American so I'll continue calling this Landstill :p.
Raffle winners as far as I know went out recently. I had someone claim a prize while I was working my shift at mtgotraders. I'm not sure if Heath will let it be known how much money we raised, I hope he does, I think we did a really a great thing for the Friborgs. (By we, I mean the mtgo community.)
E.Hustle is by far the best pilot of dead dog (which Doc ANime made years ago btw) - That also is a terribly hard deck to play correctly. Don't bother with either of these decks if your not willing to do some heavy lifting/playtesting and A LOT of time. Both ask a lot of their pilots. Thanks again for the props Tyler!
As I've said, it's very flattering AND frustrating having my pet deck out there for all eyes to see. Great observations about my moniker deck - however there are two points to really pay attention to:
1 - Spark Spray...this is mvp. If you 'have it' (combo/KF kill) great, it just adds to it, if not, you cycle it to 'get it' - lavadart prooves how effective one damage spells are and this is yet another answer, even on defence (see point 2). Cycling is also uncounter-able - and many games vs. blue, I've actually drawn more cards!
2- LDart and defense. Darts/spray are great for defense. Echoing truth/decay got ya down? Just make sure to leave a dart in your graveyard and you can trigger it to kill the token in question - thereby saving your entire team. Astounded how often opponents miss this gem. It is very syngergystic with both storm and KF. Some turn one kills are possible with KF too - but like you said turn 2 is pretty standard, especially 3. This is why spark spray is also good, with the darts AND spray, (counting flashback) you have 12 maindeck answers for mass removal.
People are quick (and wrong) to try and use lightning bolt. They immedialty think "...Hey, it's red, it means an 'auto-include' of 4xbolts..." WRONG. If you were thirsty for bigger damage...riftbolt makes a lot more sense - as you can time it to trigger storm - both are lame compared to spray, as it does it all. Sure there are going to be times (usually games you'd already lose anyways) where the bolt will save you a few turns, but I've played this since I wrote the article "BURNING KILN" and in the comments section of that article, are some hybrids of its' orgin. Like I said, i'm happy AND frustrated it's popular - but make no mistake, this is A VERY HARD DECK TO PLAY RIGHT.
I think it's a great format, and a PRE is a great move, but they seem to take a lot of work so I wouldn't expect it to be easy. I think a lot of you guys are too defensive though, and that makes you seem uninviting and I don't think helps you much. Text interviews are good, just because you don't want to do them or care for them is fine, no reason to diss other people's styles though. I rarely hear you guys addressing comments in your podcasts, again seems defensive and elitist. Just food for thought. YOu gus have a lot of natural charisma and intelligence so you have a lot to offer in any case.
"HOWEVER I just hate it when I am looking for a Legacy game and end up not seeing the description of over extended. Trust me it is annoying to the Legacy players too! "
Just as I hate it when a Legacy player can't be bothered to read the description, which I make in bright green letters with gold bunting, and stands out in the list of games. Trust me, it is annoying to me as well.
What ever happened to only being able to join an event as early as 2 hours before start time? when did that change? also, phyrexian obliterator went from 10 tix to 16 real fast. that should be noted. other than that thanks for the info and keep up the good work. freed from the reel was the reason i started to read the articles on this site so i'm very happy that your taking over where hamtastic left off.
Some of the old timers may remember from the Microprose days that we were able to rearrange the cards on the playing field to our liking. I would love to see that again!
I cant put a finger on why, but this week's article feels like you are hitting some sort of a stride in it's presentation. Good Job.
For those that eye the price lists, Look for Jace, The Mind Sculptor to continue a on a slow fizzle in its price for a little while longer. It won't deflate at the same rate as it has up to this point, but it should loose another 2-8 tickets in it's value. I am interested in how JTMS handles the EXT season.
Another card of interests is Stone Forge Mystic. This card will bounce big in extended season.
DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE!!! While I must say that the creation of the "OverExtended" or "Modern" format is awesome, I feel it is a product of the shortened Extended format rotation schedule. I think it is awesome when players make a format through their casual play. This very type of viviparous birth to magic formats is the reason we have pauper, all the multi-player formats and really standard itself started from the demand of the players. So, if you like modern... go for it! HOWEVER I just hate it when I am looking for a Legacy game and end up not seeing the description of over extended. Trust me it is annoying to the Legacy players too! As far as the cards go, the bump has happened. Unless the format takes off and starts seeing queues for it in sanctioned events or at lease a large amount of PREs sponsored by Bot Shops, the increased value of these cards in your collection is still casual.
Pete, I know this article is a few years old now, but I just got back into mtgo. I wanted to say this was a great article,and I am looking forward to getting back into R.S.
Because there are also people online asking for overextended games and that didn't get mentioned. But the "bias" remark was more that Overextended is driving the prices as well (if not more).
Vesuva has gone up since I started watching and it wasn't used in the Modern decks of the CC but has been featured pretty intensely in the decklists of the overextended PRE. What do you think is more likely?
Not to mention that given there are actually PREs for Overextended, it isn't just "speculation" there, people need the cards to play in the event.
Ivo.
Disclaimer: I'm biased towards Overextended as I think the format is better and the starting point makes more sense than the rather arbitrary "card frames" reason for Modern.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't everyone in your clan capabale of playing tier 1 classic decks? Preeeeeeety sure you guys could help us fire, all the other clans with classic decks are represented in the daily struggle. Lets see some peeps from NO out in these events.
Also me personally. This is a podcast. you either want to be on it or you dont. hence, as long as i have a say, no txt interveiws. We <3 guests and if you wanna be on thats one thing, but doing a text interview is sloppy.
Ill agree about pre and possibly dissecting P TV. but stale, i disagree with, should we just not talk about classic because there are no events? seems poor.
It may go down, but as it wasn't particularly inflated it may actually go up. It is a strong card likely to show up in standard decks. With Meddling Mage this didn't happen, but that was because Meddling Mage was previously rather scarce - Mirrodin was drafted a lot, so I'm thinking the M12 supply may actually not be as large as the upsurge in demand from being in multiples in standard decks - possibly in more than one top deck even (which is not guaranteed, but I think is likely).
Thank you Pete - I understand it is extra work (particularly for decklists). I think it is perfectly fair if for now you just include some cards.
I suggested 12 post for a reason - it is a top tier deck in Overextended and some builds are 100% legal in Modern. Modern being mostly a subset of Overextended, I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that 12 post would not be competitive in Modern.
There are also other decks with barely any Overextended cards (or easy replacements) such as the UW Jace/Stoneforge deck, so the values of such decks would be representative for both formats.
"The speculation on 'Modern' format cards have recovered, and are heading slightly up. A lot of staples are sold out. I have seen a number of people asking for Modern games online. This looks pretty promising for the format. "
I think a bias is being shown here. :) So let me interject! Many of the staples for Modern are also staples for Overextended, which also has an active and rising playerbase. Games are very easy to come by. Overextended also has up and running PREs, with prize support! I have played in several of the Tuesday events, and can attest to it's wildly diverse meta, and fun. I enjoy the format so much, I even organized an event of my own in that format.
Is it kosher to mention the overextended (non-commercial) website? A huge number of articles and winning decklists are to be found there.
I don't want to start a Modern vs Overextended debate, I just wanted to point out that many of the cards that are out of stock are popular/useful in both formats, most significantly the shocklands.
The main problem with adding cards is that it takes time. I was rushed this week. I'll add them when I can, and I may take a few off, like Isochrone Scepter. I'll have to adjust for M12 in any case.
I was hoping Wizards would say something about where Modern / Overextended was going before starting including those decklists. Right now, we don't have tournaments (other than the CCC, which was unified) to pull decklists from, so finding the "standard" or "optimal" builds could be iffy. Again, if I get a chance, I may add them. I will if Wizards gets behind one of the formats.
I asked last week for some card prices but I don't think you saw it (or didn't agree with my suggestions :) ).
This week I'll repeat some requests: Vesuva, Vendilion Clique, Orim's Chant and Pernicious Deed.
I'll make some new ones: Hypergenesis, Living Death, Solemn Simulacrum.
Most of the ones I suggest are in my opinion interesting to get a "pulse" on Modern and Overextended (some are explicitly chosen because they are in one format but not on the other).
The invitational card I believe is going to be interest to watch next week as it has been officially spoiled this week in M12.
I'd also like to see deck pricing (like you have for legacy) for Modern and Overextended. Maybe do a 12-post build as there are those as 100% legal in Modern and still 100% competitive in Overextended.
The M12 visual spoiler confirms that the lands are the same old batch from M10 and M11. Bummer, I was really hoping to get enemy colored versions in that template.
I so very much love this deck and it's THE deck I will play when I start playing Legacy once again.
A question: I think of playing this deck as a WU one and without a third color. 4x Stoneforge and 2x Vendilion Clique are going to be all my creatures and then I will fill the rest with counterspells and Batterskulls and Jaces and such things. So what do you think, is it not better? Opposing Blood Moons won't effect me at all and Wastelands won't find many targets. My secondary wincon will be Jace and Elspeth of course.
Second question: I saw people playing Sword of the Meek / Thopter Foundry combo in this the deck (Stoneforge can get that lone Sword of the Meek) as well as the Countertop combo as well. Do you think it is too greedy or can it be done?
Nice article by the way.
LE
PS: I'm not American so I'll continue calling this Landstill :p.
Raffle winners as far as I know went out recently. I had someone claim a prize while I was working my shift at mtgotraders. I'm not sure if Heath will let it be known how much money we raised, I hope he does, I think we did a really a great thing for the Friborgs. (By we, I mean the mtgo community.)
E.Hustle is by far the best pilot of dead dog (which Doc ANime made years ago btw) - That also is a terribly hard deck to play correctly. Don't bother with either of these decks if your not willing to do some heavy lifting/playtesting and A LOT of time. Both ask a lot of their pilots. Thanks again for the props Tyler!
As I've said, it's very flattering AND frustrating having my pet deck out there for all eyes to see. Great observations about my moniker deck - however there are two points to really pay attention to:
1 - Spark Spray...this is mvp. If you 'have it' (combo/KF kill) great, it just adds to it, if not, you cycle it to 'get it' - lavadart prooves how effective one damage spells are and this is yet another answer, even on defence (see point 2). Cycling is also uncounter-able - and many games vs. blue, I've actually drawn more cards!
2- LDart and defense. Darts/spray are great for defense. Echoing truth/decay got ya down? Just make sure to leave a dart in your graveyard and you can trigger it to kill the token in question - thereby saving your entire team. Astounded how often opponents miss this gem. It is very syngergystic with both storm and KF. Some turn one kills are possible with KF too - but like you said turn 2 is pretty standard, especially 3. This is why spark spray is also good, with the darts AND spray, (counting flashback) you have 12 maindeck answers for mass removal.
People are quick (and wrong) to try and use lightning bolt. They immedialty think "...Hey, it's red, it means an 'auto-include' of 4xbolts..." WRONG. If you were thirsty for bigger damage...riftbolt makes a lot more sense - as you can time it to trigger storm - both are lame compared to spray, as it does it all. Sure there are going to be times (usually games you'd already lose anyways) where the bolt will save you a few turns, but I've played this since I wrote the article "BURNING KILN" and in the comments section of that article, are some hybrids of its' orgin. Like I said, i'm happy AND frustrated it's popular - but make no mistake, this is A VERY HARD DECK TO PLAY RIGHT.
I think it's a great format, and a PRE is a great move, but they seem to take a lot of work so I wouldn't expect it to be easy. I think a lot of you guys are too defensive though, and that makes you seem uninviting and I don't think helps you much. Text interviews are good, just because you don't want to do them or care for them is fine, no reason to diss other people's styles though. I rarely hear you guys addressing comments in your podcasts, again seems defensive and elitist. Just food for thought. YOu gus have a lot of natural charisma and intelligence so you have a lot to offer in any case.
"HOWEVER I just hate it when I am looking for a Legacy game and end up not seeing the description of over extended. Trust me it is annoying to the Legacy players too! "
Just as I hate it when a Legacy player can't be bothered to read the description, which I make in bright green letters with gold bunting, and stands out in the list of games. Trust me, it is annoying to me as well.
What ever happened to only being able to join an event as early as 2 hours before start time? when did that change? also, phyrexian obliterator went from 10 tix to 16 real fast. that should be noted. other than that thanks for the info and keep up the good work. freed from the reel was the reason i started to read the articles on this site so i'm very happy that your taking over where hamtastic left off.
Some of the old timers may remember from the Microprose days that we were able to rearrange the cards on the playing field to our liking. I would love to see that again!
That gives people unfair advantage. You could just choose a legend to deny other player's commander.
I cant put a finger on why, but this week's article feels like you are hitting some sort of a stride in it's presentation. Good Job.
For those that eye the price lists, Look for Jace, The Mind Sculptor to continue a on a slow fizzle in its price for a little while longer. It won't deflate at the same rate as it has up to this point, but it should loose another 2-8 tickets in it's value. I am interested in how JTMS handles the EXT season.
Another card of interests is Stone Forge Mystic. This card will bounce big in extended season.
DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE!!! While I must say that the creation of the "OverExtended" or "Modern" format is awesome, I feel it is a product of the shortened Extended format rotation schedule. I think it is awesome when players make a format through their casual play. This very type of viviparous birth to magic formats is the reason we have pauper, all the multi-player formats and really standard itself started from the demand of the players. So, if you like modern... go for it! HOWEVER I just hate it when I am looking for a Legacy game and end up not seeing the description of over extended. Trust me it is annoying to the Legacy players too! As far as the cards go, the bump has happened. Unless the format takes off and starts seeing queues for it in sanctioned events or at lease a large amount of PREs sponsored by Bot Shops, the increased value of these cards in your collection is still casual.
Pete, I know this article is a few years old now, but I just got back into mtgo. I wanted to say this was a great article,and I am looking forward to getting back into R.S.
Because there are also people online asking for overextended games and that didn't get mentioned. But the "bias" remark was more that Overextended is driving the prices as well (if not more).
Vesuva has gone up since I started watching and it wasn't used in the Modern decks of the CC but has been featured pretty intensely in the decklists of the overextended PRE. What do you think is more likely?
Not to mention that given there are actually PREs for Overextended, it isn't just "speculation" there, people need the cards to play in the event.
Ivo.
Disclaimer: I'm biased towards Overextended as I think the format is better and the starting point makes more sense than the rather arbitrary "card frames" reason for Modern.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't everyone in your clan capabale of playing tier 1 classic decks? Preeeeeeety sure you guys could help us fire, all the other clans with classic decks are represented in the daily struggle. Lets see some peeps from NO out in these events.
Also me personally. This is a podcast. you either want to be on it or you dont. hence, as long as i have a say, no txt interveiws. We <3 guests and if you wanna be on thats one thing, but doing a text interview is sloppy.
Ill agree about pre and possibly dissecting P TV. but stale, i disagree with, should we just not talk about classic because there are no events? seems poor.
Nice article, as always.
Whatever happened with the Bruce & Tammy Friborg Fund? I looked for an update but couldn't find one.
how is it a bias if people online are asking for modern games?
though to be honest modern does look more fun
It may go down, but as it wasn't particularly inflated it may actually go up. It is a strong card likely to show up in standard decks. With Meddling Mage this didn't happen, but that was because Meddling Mage was previously rather scarce - Mirrodin was drafted a lot, so I'm thinking the M12 supply may actually not be as large as the upsurge in demand from being in multiples in standard decks - possibly in more than one top deck even (which is not guaranteed, but I think is likely).
Ivo.
Thank you Pete - I understand it is extra work (particularly for decklists). I think it is perfectly fair if for now you just include some cards.
I suggested 12 post for a reason - it is a top tier deck in Overextended and some builds are 100% legal in Modern. Modern being mostly a subset of Overextended, I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that 12 post would not be competitive in Modern.
There are also other decks with barely any Overextended cards (or easy replacements) such as the UW Jace/Stoneforge deck, so the values of such decks would be representative for both formats.
Ivo.
"The speculation on 'Modern' format cards have recovered, and are heading slightly up. A lot of staples are sold out. I have seen a number of people asking for Modern games online. This looks pretty promising for the format. "
I think a bias is being shown here. :) So let me interject! Many of the staples for Modern are also staples for Overextended, which also has an active and rising playerbase. Games are very easy to come by. Overextended also has up and running PREs, with prize support! I have played in several of the Tuesday events, and can attest to it's wildly diverse meta, and fun. I enjoy the format so much, I even organized an event of my own in that format.
Is it kosher to mention the overextended (non-commercial) website? A huge number of articles and winning decklists are to be found there.
I don't want to start a Modern vs Overextended debate, I just wanted to point out that many of the cards that are out of stock are popular/useful in both formats, most significantly the shocklands.
Solemn Simulacrum is in M12 and also one of the commander decks. I see the price dropping.
I play that TE deck as well, with great results! Only changes I made are -1Auramancer +1Phyrexian Rager, and Unmakes over Temporal Isolations.
you are right with the FTV ...but I just don't see it. It seems too easy for WotC and we all know they don't like easy...look at V3...lol...
The main problem with adding cards is that it takes time. I was rushed this week. I'll add them when I can, and I may take a few off, like Isochrone Scepter. I'll have to adjust for M12 in any case.
I was hoping Wizards would say something about where Modern / Overextended was going before starting including those decklists. Right now, we don't have tournaments (other than the CCC, which was unified) to pull decklists from, so finding the "standard" or "optimal" builds could be iffy. Again, if I get a chance, I may add them. I will if Wizards gets behind one of the formats.
Hi Pete,
I asked last week for some card prices but I don't think you saw it (or didn't agree with my suggestions :) ).
This week I'll repeat some requests: Vesuva, Vendilion Clique, Orim's Chant and Pernicious Deed.
I'll make some new ones: Hypergenesis, Living Death, Solemn Simulacrum.
Most of the ones I suggest are in my opinion interesting to get a "pulse" on Modern and Overextended (some are explicitly chosen because they are in one format but not on the other).
The invitational card I believe is going to be interest to watch next week as it has been officially spoiled this week in M12.
I'd also like to see deck pricing (like you have for legacy) for Modern and Overextended. Maybe do a 12-post build as there are those as 100% legal in Modern and still 100% competitive in Overextended.
Thank you for the articles,
Ivo.
The M12 visual spoiler confirms that the lands are the same old batch from M10 and M11. Bummer, I was really hoping to get enemy colored versions in that template.
People make mistakes. It was kind of a teaser because I thought there was more, which is a good thing because I wanted more...