I think you really want to hit 3 mana at most with vials and there are a few midrangy tribes that hit that number pretty well. Particularly with creatures that never want to see the red line except as defenders.
Midrange with a vial doesn't seem too hot an idea: Best case scenario you get to vial in a Serra Avenger one turn early on turn 3, and then wait two more turns for the bulk of your targets to come online if you're centred on the 4-drop angels. Look at the winning decks, 'blank for 4 turns' is untenable for something you'd need to run several of in order to get that optimal turn 1 drop. I remember what the vial-centric meta was like, and it did not lead to a good environment.
This is essentially a regressive measure: It gives the most to the 'rich' tribes, those with plenty of options for enters the battlefield effects or that have the strength for a powerful aggression game, and takes most away from the 'poor' tribes, those that need more effort to make work and make successful. It leads to a smaller metagame with fewer viable (Or vialable) options, increasing the stagnation in the format.
These days Modern prices are jumping around, they are pretty unstable. Some of them are so high that they never rised that much until now like; fetchlands, Chord of calling, Noble Hierarch, Thoughtseize, Fulminator mage... I just mentioned it as a continuation of Rex's comment there.
Goblin Lackey in a Shapeshifter deck can be unexpected, I'm thinking to try Scourge of Valkas in a Shapeshifter deck, once M14 comes around.
"Aether vial in a format with Snapcaster Mage? Bad idea."
Tell Modern. Where Aether Vial is far from being a "game changer".
I don't like preemptive measures. I like to have physical data to judge upon. We don't have those. We'll do. I'm ready to bet that Aether Vial will never need to be re-banned, because in 3 out of 4 weeks of the month (in one of which, it's already available), it'll be just a tool, one among many other varied and powerful tools. I may be wrong. Bet 1 tix over it, rendez-vous in Christmas? (Settled by a new, open survey about it). (By the way, I'll have the current results visible as soon as at least 5 people took it. One can just resubmit to see how it's going, duplicate answers under the same player name will just be deleted — the most recent is counted, in case one wants to change answers).
"easy enough just to reverse the tribe and have a kor splash in a cephalid deck"
You can't have the only Kor that you really need, aka Stoneforge Mystic. You'll also miss a decent, non-goofy plan B. I won't call this "easy". Robin will probably try it. I'd like to see it.
The thing about Cephalid Breakfast in Tribal is that it has been played a lot (as said previously, more than all the other Watch List cards put together), and still didn't amount to much influence. Before last week, there were only 4 cases out of 21+ where the deck ended undefeated, and 8 cases where the deck performed badly (2 losses or more). This is hardly the outcome of a dominating deck. Even last week, I managed to stop Robin's combo (via Deathrite Shaman and/or Ulvenwald Tracker; the deck is mostly unprotected against that kind of things), and could have won if I didn't make some mistakes. A better player than me would have. It's possibly the easiest endgame combo to stop. Robin won the match in the end thanks to the Kor deck having a strong plan B to rely upon when things go south.
Still, the combo is hated because its frequency means that by now most regular players faced it and probably lost to it a few times (maybe in weeks where they were the only good matchup for the Breakfast), so they started hating on it more than on other combo decks that you meet less frequently.
Another issue is that it's been the domain of essentially two players only (with only other two trying it occasionally). So this may look like an ad personam measure, which I never like. It's one of the reasons why the Cephalid, that I'm sure will be voted out now, will be automatically back in due time, probably this time next year.
After all, there are only a few cards that can disrupt a Legacy pool permanently, and most of them are already in the official Legacy ban list. And I like the rotation concept. DCI does to, especially in the only eternal format they're actually following closely, which is Modern (but we saw recent instances of this approach in Legacy and Commander too). After they unbanned Valakut, people were saying that the sky would fall (I was concerned myself.) But oh look, it turns out it didn't.
I like seeing different things taking turn, even powerful things. The problem is when you see the same things again and again. You may just want to put a pause button on those, maybe.
Well, a 3-tix range is still moderately cheap, considering how unreachable are some staples for many budget players (not just Wasteland or duals/fetches, just think of Noble Hierarch or Thoughtseize).
Yeah, I don't think I'll use Vial with Leviathans or Wurms. :)
Maybe with something like Angels, though. That would be nice. In midrange it's essentially a mana accelerator. I think the anti-countermagic angle is overrated in Tribal. How many decks actually use countermagic in this meta? The flash/anti-immediate-sorcery-speed-removal angle seems more relevant to me.
And I look forward to use Goblin Lackey in a Shapeshifter deck. :)
Aether vial being unbanned is a big problem. Hopefully only a short-lived one, but this approach to banning and unbanning is a wee bit idiosyncratic. Why do we need to encourage goblin decks? Why do we want a format with turn 2 siege-gangs and Ringleaders? What purpose does this serve?
Low cost swarm decks are doing fine in the event, they really don't need the aether vial boost. Looking at the top decks, the strongest ones are straight aggro and fast combo, both of which stand to get even stronger from this decision. I strongly, strongly advise you to reconsider this one.
I'd be happy never seeing Cephalid illusionist again, especially not off-tribe, but it'd be easy enough just to reverse the tribe and have a kor splash in a cephalid deck. You know me, I campaigned long and hard for letting some of the bigger cards be allowed in their own tribes. I'm not pro-banning by default and without thought.
As for the proposed bannings, I've abused Punishing Fire myself many a time, it can be a nasty lock, but it does serve as a useful recurrent threat against swarms. I could see this as an either-or with Aether vial: If you insist on having that gamebreaker in everyone's deck, having a hard to counter countermeasure will help ameliorate it a little. On the other hand, if it was the choice of both in or both out, I'd say bench them both.
Seriously, Aether vial in a format with Snapcaster Mage? Bad idea. Vial elves, vial goblins, this only helps those that don't need help.
Æther Vial is currently at its peak price as it was during the Modern PTQ season last year.
Regardless to that I still don't think that Æther Vial will be good in every decks. It can be effective in the decks with Control elements like; Illusion, Merfolk, Slivers, Faeries, Wizards (?) or hyper aggressive decks like; Goblins can board it.
I guess, we may see the clear picture within 2-3 months from now on.
Overall, I believe that it will be an interesting change for all of us...
Talk about shaking things up! Aether Vial is huge. I'll probably have a full analysis in next's week's Show and Tell segment of the card's impact.
The part that people may like the most is that it helps people with lower budgets play Merfolk more effectively, since you can now hold up mana for countermagic and still develop your board even if you don't own FoW or Daze. This also applies to Counterslivers. Of course it also helps the high-budget Merfolk decks, as they can rock more Mutavaults, Wastelands, and (for the real high rollers) Rishadan Ports to better effect.
It also helps a number of popular low-budget decks including Allies (a deck I personally loathe, but which has many adherents.) Vial is creeping up in price, and we just got a huge supply influx from MMA drafts, so people should grab 'em now.
The biggest immediate problem with unbanning Aether Vial is Cephalid Breakfast. You talked about it, and I think you need to ban Cephalid Illusionist right away, now that Aether Vial is legal. Allowing their combo creatures to be uncounterable makes that deck even stronger than it was before.
Never drafted UG, though I did like Ondu Giant, and you make a good case for the curves meshing fairly well. I adored UG in Scars/Scars/MBS for the "Dino-Go" archetype, and of course it was the nut combination in triple AVR and is looking pretty solid in M14 draft too.
Wingcrafter is definitely weaker than Trained Condor. 1) The Condor attacks for more damage and always has Flying. 2) It can give Flying to your best creature rather than being tied to a single one. Still I would agree that the set in general is pretty underpowered.
This looks like an incredibly underpowered limited set and the fact that you don't really rate any of the cards even for such an underpowered format as standard pauper basically confirms that. Apart from baloth which is just about as boring a creature as you'll ever see, I think you rate trained condor as the best card in both articles, but you can already get that effect for one less mana (wingcrafter) with only the slight drawback of less flexibility. ugh.
I think you really want to hit 3 mana at most with vials and there are a few midrangy tribes that hit that number pretty well. Particularly with creatures that never want to see the red line except as defenders.
Midrange with a vial doesn't seem too hot an idea: Best case scenario you get to vial in a Serra Avenger one turn early on turn 3, and then wait two more turns for the bulk of your targets to come online if you're centred on the 4-drop angels. Look at the winning decks, 'blank for 4 turns' is untenable for something you'd need to run several of in order to get that optimal turn 1 drop. I remember what the vial-centric meta was like, and it did not lead to a good environment.
This is essentially a regressive measure: It gives the most to the 'rich' tribes, those with plenty of options for enters the battlefield effects or that have the strength for a powerful aggression game, and takes most away from the 'poor' tribes, those that need more effort to make work and make successful. It leads to a smaller metagame with fewer viable (Or vialable) options, increasing the stagnation in the format.
It isn't unexpected in the midst of Modern season that nonreprinted staples are soaring..wait a few months and they will settle again.
Personally I think Aether Vial is great in nongob/fish builds. Maybe ban it in those builds only? :p
That's a typo. I suspect I fat-fingered $12.67. Sorry about that.
This is interesting. I learned good stuff here. - Michael Courouleau
These days Modern prices are jumping around, they are pretty unstable. Some of them are so high that they never rised that much until now like; fetchlands, Chord of calling, Noble Hierarch, Thoughtseize, Fulminator mage... I just mentioned it as a continuation of Rex's comment there.
Goblin Lackey in a Shapeshifter deck can be unexpected, I'm thinking to try Scourge of Valkas in a Shapeshifter deck, once M14 comes around.
Good to see this one. I want to understand more on this. - David Contarino
These characters are really good. I want to master it all. - David Contarino
"Aether vial in a format with Snapcaster Mage? Bad idea."
Tell Modern. Where Aether Vial is far from being a "game changer".
I don't like preemptive measures. I like to have physical data to judge upon. We don't have those. We'll do. I'm ready to bet that Aether Vial will never need to be re-banned, because in 3 out of 4 weeks of the month (in one of which, it's already available), it'll be just a tool, one among many other varied and powerful tools. I may be wrong. Bet 1 tix over it, rendez-vous in Christmas? (Settled by a new, open survey about it). (By the way, I'll have the current results visible as soon as at least 5 people took it. One can just resubmit to see how it's going, duplicate answers under the same player name will just be deleted — the most recent is counted, in case one wants to change answers).
"easy enough just to reverse the tribe and have a kor splash in a cephalid deck"
You can't have the only Kor that you really need, aka Stoneforge Mystic. You'll also miss a decent, non-goofy plan B. I won't call this "easy". Robin will probably try it. I'd like to see it.
The thing about Cephalid Breakfast in Tribal is that it has been played a lot (as said previously, more than all the other Watch List cards put together), and still didn't amount to much influence. Before last week, there were only 4 cases out of 21+ where the deck ended undefeated, and 8 cases where the deck performed badly (2 losses or more). This is hardly the outcome of a dominating deck. Even last week, I managed to stop Robin's combo (via Deathrite Shaman and/or Ulvenwald Tracker; the deck is mostly unprotected against that kind of things), and could have won if I didn't make some mistakes. A better player than me would have. It's possibly the easiest endgame combo to stop. Robin won the match in the end thanks to the Kor deck having a strong plan B to rely upon when things go south.
Still, the combo is hated because its frequency means that by now most regular players faced it and probably lost to it a few times (maybe in weeks where they were the only good matchup for the Breakfast), so they started hating on it more than on other combo decks that you meet less frequently.
Another issue is that it's been the domain of essentially two players only (with only other two trying it occasionally). So this may look like an ad personam measure, which I never like. It's one of the reasons why the Cephalid, that I'm sure will be voted out now, will be automatically back in due time, probably this time next year.
After all, there are only a few cards that can disrupt a Legacy pool permanently, and most of them are already in the official Legacy ban list. And I like the rotation concept. DCI does to, especially in the only eternal format they're actually following closely, which is Modern (but we saw recent instances of this approach in Legacy and Commander too). After they unbanned Valakut, people were saying that the sky would fall (I was concerned myself.) But oh look, it turns out it didn't.
I like seeing different things taking turn, even powerful things. The problem is when you see the same things again and again. You may just want to put a pause button on those, maybe.
Well, a 3-tix range is still moderately cheap, considering how unreachable are some staples for many budget players (not just Wasteland or duals/fetches, just think of Noble Hierarch or Thoughtseize).
Yeah, I don't think I'll use Vial with Leviathans or Wurms. :)
Maybe with something like Angels, though. That would be nice. In midrange it's essentially a mana accelerator. I think the anti-countermagic angle is overrated in Tribal. How many decks actually use countermagic in this meta? The flash/anti-immediate-sorcery-speed-removal angle seems more relevant to me.
And I look forward to use Goblin Lackey in a Shapeshifter deck. :)
:)
Nice, "Preemptive Captain". It's the captain that thinks ahead and does things before they're needed.
I see it as 13 and change so I would think its an error unless it dropped more than 33% in 2 days
EDIT: That was in reply to the above poster...
Aether vial being unbanned is a big problem. Hopefully only a short-lived one, but this approach to banning and unbanning is a wee bit idiosyncratic. Why do we need to encourage goblin decks? Why do we want a format with turn 2 siege-gangs and Ringleaders? What purpose does this serve?
Low cost swarm decks are doing fine in the event, they really don't need the aether vial boost. Looking at the top decks, the strongest ones are straight aggro and fast combo, both of which stand to get even stronger from this decision. I strongly, strongly advise you to reconsider this one.
I'd be happy never seeing Cephalid illusionist again, especially not off-tribe, but it'd be easy enough just to reverse the tribe and have a kor splash in a cephalid deck. You know me, I campaigned long and hard for letting some of the bigger cards be allowed in their own tribes. I'm not pro-banning by default and without thought.
As for the proposed bannings, I've abused Punishing Fire myself many a time, it can be a nasty lock, but it does serve as a useful recurrent threat against swarms. I could see this as an either-or with Aether vial: If you insist on having that gamebreaker in everyone's deck, having a hard to counter countermeasure will help ameliorate it a little. On the other hand, if it was the choice of both in or both out, I'd say bench them both.
Seriously, Aether vial in a format with Snapcaster Mage? Bad idea. Vial elves, vial goblins, this only helps those that don't need help.
Æther Vial is currently at its peak price as it was during the Modern PTQ season last year.
Regardless to that I still don't think that Æther Vial will be good in every decks. It can be effective in the decks with Control elements like; Illusion, Merfolk, Slivers, Faeries, Wizards (?) or hyper aggressive decks like; Goblins can board it.
I guess, we may see the clear picture within 2-3 months from now on.
Overall, I believe that it will be an interesting change for all of us...
I've seen that as well. Thought maybe that would be the trend of this site that way it could beat the spambots that come. But I guess not. *shrugs*
Congratulation Rex for the first place.
I'm personally looking forward for your next articles for Legacy & Classic & Vintage...
Did Cascade Bluffs really round $21.67? Or is that an error?
Talk about shaking things up! Aether Vial is huge. I'll probably have a full analysis in next's week's Show and Tell segment of the card's impact.
The part that people may like the most is that it helps people with lower budgets play Merfolk more effectively, since you can now hold up mana for countermagic and still develop your board even if you don't own FoW or Daze. This also applies to Counterslivers. Of course it also helps the high-budget Merfolk decks, as they can rock more Mutavaults, Wastelands, and (for the real high rollers) Rishadan Ports to better effect.
It also helps a number of popular low-budget decks including Allies (a deck I personally loathe, but which has many adherents.) Vial is creeping up in price, and we just got a huge supply influx from MMA drafts, so people should grab 'em now.
The biggest immediate problem with unbanning Aether Vial is Cephalid Breakfast. You talked about it, and I think you need to ban Cephalid Illusionist right away, now that Aether Vial is legal. Allowing their combo creatures to be uncounterable makes that deck even stronger than it was before.
PM me in game sometime. I've got a xmas in July present for ya.
Never drafted UG, though I did like Ondu Giant, and you make a good case for the curves meshing fairly well. I adored UG in Scars/Scars/MBS for the "Dino-Go" archetype, and of course it was the nut combination in triple AVR and is looking pretty solid in M14 draft too.
maybe it was just me - seeing them all now
Wingcrafter is definitely weaker than Trained Condor. 1) The Condor attacks for more damage and always has Flying. 2) It can give Flying to your best creature rather than being tied to a single one. Still I would agree that the set in general is pretty underpowered.
Off-topic: why is this the only article on the main page that has non-FB comments enabled?
This looks like an incredibly underpowered limited set and the fact that you don't really rate any of the cards even for such an underpowered format as standard pauper basically confirms that. Apart from baloth which is just about as boring a creature as you'll ever see, I think you rate trained condor as the best card in both articles, but you can already get that effect for one less mana (wingcrafter) with only the slight drawback of less flexibility. ugh.